“sober” “discreet” “self-controlled”
The English version I generally use reads like this:
Titus 2:4Then they can train the younger women to love their husbands and children, 5to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God
I thought about the word “self controlled” for some time. I realized that:
When I did not have control over my SELF
I did NOT have SELF Control.
Let me clarify what I mean by that:
I found that when I was micromanaged and controlled from the outside, I did NOT have self control! I would have ugly displays of anger 
But once I realized that I can draw the line on the” control freak” behavior, that I have control over myself, no one else is allowed to micromanage and control me and “run me” like an appliance, once I knew that I had God’s permission to say “NO!” or “yes”, THEN lo and behold: I had SELF control! I didn’t get furious anymore about the outrageously trivial control freak behavior.
That was from the English translation.
Then I got to digging into the Greek words and roots:
I noticed that the repetition of a similar word: sophron (rendered “sober”) and sophronizo (rendered “discreet”)
Titus 2:4-5 That they may teach the young women to be sober <4994>, to love their husbands, to love their children,
[To be] discreet<4998>, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
So I looked at all the definitions under those entries (<4994> <4998>)
and I looked at their root words which are listed “sozo” and “phren”: <4982> <5424>
Here’s a list of the meanings (you can look at the links if you want to see for yourself):
to restore one to his senses,
to moderate, control, curb, disciple
to hold one to his duty
to admonish, to exhort earnestly
of a sound mind, sane, in one’s senses
curbing one’s desires and impulses, self-controlled, temperateand from the roots:
to keep safe and sound, make well, heal, restore, save—> the mind, the faculty of perceiving and judging
And the verse says this of the older women:
“becometh holiness”<2412>- (from <2413> and <4241>)
to stand out, to be conspicuous, to be eminent, to be becoming, seemly, fit, as one who is sacred, consecrated to God
and this to be taught to the younger women:
“chaste”- <53> exciting reverence, venerable, sacred, pure, pure from carnality, chaste, modest, pure from every fault, immaculate, clean
Older women behave as “becometh holiness” and teaching the neos (new or younger women) to be sober/self controlled and chaste. Please note, they are teaching MARRIED WOMEN!!!!!! So, married women (who are immature in their faith) will have a tendency to LACK self controlled/sober and chaste behavior.
I see in there God’s intention that the mature women teach the neos (newer, younger) to the end that their mind will be whole, sound, healed, that they will live consecrated, set apart for God, being able to perceive what is good and constructive and what is evil, that they have the charge to GUARD their home/marriage and keep themselves safe, protected, and chaste within their home and with their husbands.
I told my beloved husband just yesterday that I think there are still traces of enmity between him and myself because there must be! The Bible says of Eve that there will be enmity between her seed and the seed of Satan. There is no other option but a consecration, a setting apart of myself from him when he surrenders himself to Satan and speaks forth things and behaves in ways which “steal, kill, and destroy”. I cannot, I MUST NOT agree with evil things. There was a time when I prostituted myself to him in a vain attempt to “buy love”. Perhaps you are thinking that is a comment all about sex. Sometimes it involved bedroom behavior. But it is- by no means- exclusive to that. Selling myself out in order to win approval came in many forms which for me looked a lot like perfectionism, striving, workaholism. He said “jump” and I asked “how high”? That is NOT self control, sound mind, sobriety, sophron. That did NOT keep me safe in my own home. That kept me a fearful and victimized and training my children to be equally fearful and victimized in my and their own home.
I observed an overlap in the characteristics enjoined upon the woman married to a disobedient husband of 1 Pet 3- I recalled that she is exhorted to be chaste
I observed that 1 Tim 2:15 has overlap in the characteristics enjoined upon “they”…
Namely a very similar “sobriety” <4997> word is used. And 1 Tim 2:9 echoes the exhortation of women to sobriety AND expands that to modesty of attitude and dress.
Which leads me to a possible understanding of the promise of 1 Timothy 2:15:
I personally was guilty of “husband idolatry”. I put him on the throne and I was an obedient servant, while he micromanaged and controlled down to trivial detail. My desire was for my husband (to please him, to satisfy him) and he ruled over me. The passage can be taken as a PROMISE for the marriage of ANY CHRISTIAN WOMAN- that she will be saved/restored/made whole in a reversal of the fall’s consequences (”he shall rule over you”) back to her status as a co-heir with Christ, back to her queenly, ruling position of the Garden-BESIDE Adam- rather than being the mistress/subordinate/underling to Adam’s “master-hood”. Could such restoration for her be conditional upon her remaining with her husband?? Notice “if THEY continue in faithfulness…” This interpretation would speak quite firmly and with HOPE to the Christian woman contemplating divorce from a husband who is sinning against her in various ways.
[...] Titus 2, CHASTITY is to be taught to the younger {MARRIED!!!} women by the older {MARRIED!!!} women: [...]
OK, this has been bugging me, so praying about it, I went back, and re-read that article, about Driscoll, to the end,
I barely could finish reading it because it was just so juvenile and I had to laugh [in shame] at parts, because honestly, I couldn’t Believe, this was being preached, in Any church,
not only that, that it was even taken seriously…I KNOW we aren’t to slander or say anything wrong,
but, well, for this, I just have to say, Based on, all the content of what this Driscoll man has said, it sounds as if its something more what one would hear on Howard Stern, not in some church somewhere….that is a tad shocking, to say the least,
but, then I’ve been away from the ‘church’ for years, and I will say, if This is what becomes the norm, I will stay away from the church, I’ve seen more godly respect for women in the goddess bunch, and That is SAD.
If he’s trying to push the envelope, so to speak, he’s doing it in a wrong way….
but, aside that, what I did see, that I did find even more disturbing, was this:
“He also directs visitors to a website called Christian Nymphos, which he describes as run by “Christian women.” Essentially, it is an electronic bulletin board for individuals to list and describe for others their favorite sexual positions and techniques”
This, is maybe why, I do react so strongly, and Why, Yes, I do think,
Church, [and Jesus, I've prayed about this] you Do need, some MILITANT FEMINISTS, TO START STANDING OPPOSED,
to this onslaught, of the doctrines of demons, religion of Bael,
and That, this Christian Nymphos, is Exactly what that is, its Just like, the pro-sex prostitutes and pro-porn BIMBOS we run into when confronting porn and prostitution and trafficking,
and, there isn’t being ‘nice’ to these people, because they play on nice…there is only One way to deal with them,
and that is, to be tough.
The fact that, for one, he ‘advised’ a New Convert, what he did, is just appalling and as a man, he has no business, whatsoever, telling ANY woman, what her ‘duty’ is, as far as sex is concerned,
and on that Charis, I totally concur with you, let the Women teach and/or counsel the women, but, now, if we have churches with women such as the Christian Nymphos, we are in Serious trouble.
And, another thing, in the article, it says, he’s influential to the young pastors,
that speaks volumes….
and I can guarantee you, they keep this up, and women Will be leaving in droves AND they will, convert to Islam,
count on it.
OR, they’ll turn completely against God….and this is why, we DO need, Strong women,
who, will stand opposed to the patriarchy, that is, obviously, blatantly, reducing women, in the church, to nothing more
than shrine prostitutes.
The one man in the article said, we need frank talk about sexuality in the church, I say,
Oh really, by that, do you mean, Frank Talk, represented by Both genders? Or just, the Male Gender?
[and no, a female author or web group of nymphos doesn't count as representation of all women]
IF THIS, is what Christian women, particularly young women, are being exposed to,
then, yes, we need, some strong Feminist voices out there…to rebut, every single point, and who can be Very frank about it,
I am, by far, probably very liberal, compared to many, but I will say this, for the record,
while I don’t believe in ‘policing’ people’s sex lives within marriage, etc., I do believe, that when there are outrageous things taught, especially in environments that are conducive to indoctrinate and influence obedience without question, even to the point of self harm,
then, yes, we have a responsibility, to take a stand. And while, I can appreciate, some of the more conservative men, who did speak up against these teachings,
on the other hand, its an oxymoron, because the fact is, there ARE men, who believe in this type of behavior, and if you are telling women, to ‘submit’ in everything,
it does not matter, if its publicly preached or not, this is what, women are being told, to tolerate,
and its really, not tolerating sex, as much as it is telling women, to submit, to
MARITAL RAPE.
And by that, I include, rape by duress, and rape by coercion, and rape by fraud.
I would strongly suggest, women become Empowered, and take Control, over their sexuality,
I am a firm believer in this, in marriage, sure, I believe there is that place for submission,
but in the bedroom, That is another area, all together, and I, am his ‘wife’,
NOT his, sex slave….
nor his ‘paid prostitute’,
and last I heard, TO BE FRANK, sex was supposed to be, about an AGREED upon Mutual Consenting Relationship.
Telling a woman, its her ‘duty’ to do such and such, and warping scripture, is NOT about consent,
and That, that needs to be confronted, in a very strong way.
Meanwhile, it shows a very sad state of the church in America,
while women, people are being shot in Iran,
we have preachers here, teaching masturbation with a Bible in hand and instructing ‘young believers’ to a nympho website.
Personally, his teachings, don’t even deserve air time, much less, an article,
but ironically, it just might, force some of these die hard demand ‘submission’ no matter what, to take a hard good look,
at just How , men have used scripture, to Rape and Degrade their wives, and also, children.
Sometimes, things have to come into the light, for them to be exposed,
and for that, I guess, Driscoll, you did that pretty well.
But, that leaves the question doesn’t it,
is Driscoll, simply just naive and just ignorant, OR,
is he, simply, just stating ‘publicly, what so many Christian men,
already believe and already do to women, on a daily basis?
And That, is where, the problem really lies, and why, we need, women, to start saying,
NO.
Solidarity, Christian but always a feminist [and proud of it]
Jane
I do think Driscoll is bringing out into the light the expectations of MANY church-going men; expectations which have been influenced by porn- whether or not they are “present day” users. My husband was exposed in childhood, and even during a long stretch where he was not regularly using, his expectations were still influenced by it. It had imprinted him.
I have wondered myself why men focus on 1 Cor 7 and SOS to emphasize sexual entitlement yet one never hears them focussing on 1 Cor 7 and teaching on sexual fasting (which is in there too, plain as day) nor does one hear them calling men to consider being “EUNUCHS FOR CHRIST”
see “I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!”
Why the men focus on…
simple, we live in a Decadent nation.
And its not just ‘sex’,
its materialism, idolatry….nationalism [opposed to love, which was what the Pharisees were guilty of, Bible--anti-Samaritan, interesting History that on, on the Samaritans],
and it starts, this dive to decadence, in the origins of the beginning of the Institutionalizing, the Body of Christ,
into a ‘CHURCH’.
Transferring the ‘domain’ of the Body of Christ, from under Christ, to under the Domain, of the
WORLD, a.k.a., then, the Kings and Monarchs.
and its been going to crappers since.
Spiritual warfare….that ‘dominion’ change of hands….it explains A LOT,
there were times the body of Christ would Revolt and obey Christ rather than the Institution of Dominion,
and the Body of Christ would rise up….then, get complacent, usually in times of ‘peace and prosperity’ and ‘progress’,
then, back to being ruled and influenced under the ‘dominion’ again, of the world,
and so forth…
always though, God saves a ‘remnant’.
lawlessness–does that mean,
without ‘law’ or
without, GOD’s LAWS?
Talked to my husband about this yesterday…now, he’s a Jew, o.k., not a practicing one, he knows all about dogma, and well,
he’s not what I would say, one I would always rely on for advice but every now and then, there is a real twinkle of wisdom in him, and yesterday, I told him about this Driscoll,
he calls this whole thing in the Church about sex, etc., the Saddleback club [he knows that area of CA], anyway,
from an OUTSIDER point of view, ok, from my husband, he says,
when I told him all the details of Driscoll’s teaching,
‘that submit as unto the Lord, do you mean, ladies, people, that God is telling you to bend over [he was referring to Driscoll's anal sex comments], my husband said, Tell me, One place, in the Bible, in the Law [Torah/Talmud] where it says,
God says, bend over?
Now, my husband was being a smart ass but Charis, you know, sometimes, his being a smart ass, he can really PULL OUT THE B.S. with the SHOVEL, pull out the weeds, so to speak,
of course, I’m just like laughing my butt off by he kept going, and my husband says, that is typical of America, typical of ‘dumb sheep’ that would actually,
listen to this type of DOGMA, and actually, BELIEVE IT,
and they are just STUPID.
So, I got into it with him, over calling the ‘sheep’ stupid, but he then says,
Look, these people in these congregations are NOT backwoods people, it would be ONE thing, if they had nothing but a third grade education, reading level, but, These people, These women, can READ,
this isn’t like in the Medieval period where the Church said, only ‘we’ can read scripture, so, there is no excuse for such stupidity, for OBEYING AND SUBMITTING
to pastors and teachers who teach, things that NO WHERE
in the Bible, in any where in Judaic law, does it say
God thus says, bend over.
I told my husband about the woman who wrote the book about submitting to your husband no matter what, and that includes even wife swapping, etc., and that God would forgive the wife and hold husband accountable,
I thought, my husband was going to piss in his pants, literally,
he then said, Sure, your husband tells you, to go rob a bank, and shoot five men, and then, of course, later, to uh, Bend over,
and then, in Heaven, God will say, its o.k.?
He then says, “How STUPID are these people? God would Never, say anything of the sort, show me, Anywhere, in God’s Laws, that He even Suggests such things?
And he said, when these people get to Heaven, God is going to look at the women, and say, STUPID,
now, he was being comical, you know but Charis, MY HUSBAND HAS A POINT….A REALLY GOOD POINT,
and he’s not even a practicing Jew, but He knows enough, about Judaic law and no where, he says, is any of what is being taught, even
remotely characteristic, of who God is.
He says its all DOGMA and B.S. [well, in his words]
Then he said, Jewish men have been trying to get Jewish women to do some of those things for years, ain’t no way, any Jewish woman, going to tolerate such orders…
and that, if a man, insisted on it or insisted on screwing around, etc., a Jewish woman, would say,
“honey, let me finish yer there circumcision, cut off a few more inches off you smeckie”
of course, he does that in this New York Jewish voice [mimic] which is just funnier than ever, but you know Charis, sometimes,
you can See, the just blatant and outright LUDICROUS teachings, FALSE TEACHINGS in the church, when someone, who is an outsider,
can see it clear as day, and can use Humor, to expose it for what it is,
bottom line: WE HAVE MEN AND SOME WOMEN, PLAYING ON PEOPLE’S ‘GUILT’ [SATAN, FOR SURE], USING SCRIPTURE, TO GET PEOPLE
ESPECIALLY WOMEN, TO DO, ‘THEIR BIDDING’,
NOT GOD’S BIDDING…..
THEY ARE USING THE SCRIPTURES, AS A FORM OF BRAINWASHING AND EVEN WITCHCRAFT.
And, because we Can read, like my husband says,
we can KNOW who God is and What God says, about Sin…
no where, would God say,
don’t sin, oh, but now, do sin.
and Just like my husband says,
SUBMIT AS UNTO THE LORD
means, submit, as you would UNTO THE LORD, and if the LORD, WOULDN’T ASK YOU, TO DO
SUCH AND SUCH OR DEMAND
then, YOU DON’T SUBMIT TO THAT.
quite simple,
and no where, in the Bible, does God say
bend over, nor does God say, take off his there pants and get busy….
AND my husband says, that ‘submit in everything’, means,
WITHIN REASON, he thinks, they probably Took within reason, out…
when an Orthodox Jew, can see through the twisting of God’s Scriptures, one who doesn’t believe in Jesus, and show clear as day….how the scriptures are being ‘mishandled’
we had better, pay attention,
and stop being
STUPID.
Jane
LOL
you have a wise husband!
I honestly think that- at root – christians who promote husbands using wives this way view GOD as saying “bend over!” (though they are not conscious of their warped view of God).
You and hubby might enjoy “The Jewish Way in Love and Marriage” I found his perspective on marriage (as blogged by Cindy) very edifying!
PRAY, AND WEAR GREEN RIBBONS, IN SOLIDARITY AND SUPPORT,
OF THE OPPRESSED WOMEN [MANY CHRISTIANS IN IRAN'S PRISONS], IN IRAN
see Green Ribbon Campaign
Monday, June 22, 2009
Wear Green Ribbons For Iran
http://www.greenconsciousness.org/weblog/
she is pagan but she works endlessly, for All women’s rights,
and she’s a real blessing…scroll down, to see the green ribbon, she is supporter of Phyllis Chesler too,
of whom I greatly respect.
Seems that NOW and other ‘feminists’ have pretty much tossed the women rights to the curb, see the article, on the leftists feminists, screaming about France’s decision,
to ban the burka,
they Hypocrisy, is just unreal, its fine for governments/mullahs to FORCE ALL WOMEN TO WEAR PRISON BLACK SHEET GARB, [and other debasing forced sufferings]
but, Dare, a Christian or a Jew, live.
Their hate of Israel, is more important, than women’s human rights….
so, anyway, I am working on something, for the support of women in Islamic countries, Iran right now, who, don’t have a lot of support…will keep you posted
Jane
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/WOW.html
amazing, how things change but remain the same….
Jewish women, confronting Misogyny, in Judaism, in Israel,
they can’t even ‘pray’ at the wall without so called Godly men,
throwing metal chairs, spitting at them, biting them, cursing them,
I wonder, are ALL THESE SO CALLED GODLY MEN, SONS OF ADAM, FROM AMERICA TO ISRAEL,
RELATED?
because if so, and That, is what Heaven is going to be like…
who the Hell wants to go there? One side of the men in heaven will be throwing chairs at us telling us no devil woman you can’t pray,
I suppose the Sons of Heaven will cast us in a corner,
and the Other Sons of Heaven, will force us,
on our knees and giving them those acts of kindness…
and, I found something interesting too, this evening, early church [well, during the days of the Papacy and Kings and all that], guess they didn’t do away with ‘temple shrines’, instead, they had, knights with ‘ladies in courting’,
basically, knights with wives, and ladies [women] who were in courts, to sexually ‘service them’,
all, BLESSED BY GOD OF COURSE,
it makes me, SICK…and OUTRIGHT, FURIOUS….
[venting]
anyway, see video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AOvDE5Y5Ao
while watching these, remember,
Obama, loves the full cover Burka [and soon I'm sure, we'll be forced to wear it here] and complains, or should I say, whines, that France,
has the balls to say, HELL NO, NO TO DARK AGE OPPRESSION OF WOMEN
and in Iran, women, get shot…raped, moral police, crushed spirits,
all, in the name of course, of
GOD.
I don’t BLAME WOMEN, FOR WORSHIPPING, GODDESSES….
Jane
Observe Jesus in the temple:
nursing infants would be accompanied by whom?
the blind and lame also came to him in the temple
JESUS explained that HE is the TEMPLE (John 2:19-21) . In the OT law only a PERFECT JEWISH MALE of the right tribe could enter into the Holy of Holies. When JESUS died on the cross, the veil into the Holy of Holies was rent from top to bottom (Matt 27:51, Mk 15:38, Lk 23:45) which made a pathway for ALL to access the Holy of Holies:
nursing infants, their mothers, the lame and blind, etc… What Jesus did in Matt 21 (above) defied all the traditional prejudices/restrictions. See also Shalom especially the picture of Herod’s Temple toward the bottom and the identity of the “dividing walls of hostility”