Musicmom speaks of her response to having a feminist mother for whom
“motherhood was a trap, children were a burden, a home was a prison and nurturing was unnecessary and too time-consuming…
Feminism became my enemy of choice and I vowed to aim my life’s energy at its destruction. I decided right then and there that my children would not grow up feeling unwanted and cast aside in favor of career and comfort. My quiverfull future (at least in my mind) had begun….”
The radical pro-abortion feminists who (oddly enough) seem to be the majority of Vyckie’s followers and supporters are intolerant of any expression of pro-life belief on the NLQ forum and set out to shoot the messenger. I know for a fact based on private messages I have received that QF women are driven away by the pro-abortion atmosphere. That’s OK, perhaps its for the best. It will do them no good to trade one side of the coin for the other!
What do radical pro-abortion feminists have in common with those who embraced a QF lifestyle to the point of their own personal destruction? Both groups of women have a root of self-hatred and self-rejection.
The pro-aborts would obliterate their femininity and maternal instinct perpetrating violence against their own unborn child. As a QF mom, I know that I felt that to be born female was to be born fundamentally inferior. The Christian world was filled with messages that left me feeling like God really didn’t think much of women (after all, they cannot be trusted with ANY leadership or authority!)
So I got on the QF hamster wheel of trying to prove the value and worth of femininity by over-use of the uniquely feminine ability to bear children. 
(NOT, mind you, that I regret having my children. They are, and will always be my greatest treasures!)
Ironic how the same women can express such (justifiable) rage over the death of a child at the hands of her QF parents, while simultaneously defending a mother’s “right” to KILL her unborn child. Now the RAGE is not directed at the MURDER of the child but with laser beam precision at any one who would DEFEND the child’s right to live. It strikes me as inconsistent and double-minded.
My experience on that board is that the QF mom winds up villainized every time.
She has the children, they grow up and have angst about their childhood experiences. She’s the villain.
She believes with all her heart that a child is human from conception and should be protected. She’s the villain.
Someone in the news goes off the deep end and murders their child using Pearl “discipline” techniques. Once again, QF mothers wind up being the villain.
She is an alien and stranger in this world:
-among church people who can’t understand deciding to allow God to plan her family size
-among her grown up children with angst about their upbringing
-to her husband who agrees with the church that she must be silent
-among those who set up foundations to “help” but only offer more disrespect
Beloved Daughter of the Most High God: He Understands! He Cares!
You are not a stranger to HIM!
Good one, Charis.
From another woman who is tired of the villification of anything female and the villification of all feminism.
It goes clear back to Adam who blamed “the woman that Thou gavest me.”
May all females reading here learn to let the mountains of blame heaped on women to just roll off and find her identity and fulfillment in God, who never once thought it was a mistake to make women.
Charis,
I feel overwhelmed with sadness reading this. My wife and I talking about many of the issues you present here pray about them and discuss them, but I feel a deep heartache just reading what you wrote. The tragedy of it all is that it is groups of women who actually need one another. If only they could all see it together.
Please do not lump us NLQers all in the same basket of “pro abortion feminists”.
I for one am pro life (for myself and my body), yet pro choice (with the proviso adequate and accurate information is provided).
As for this comment:
_____
“My experience on that board is that the QF mom winds up villainized every time.
She has the children, they grow up and have angst about their childhood experiences. She’s the villain.
She believes with all her heart that a child is human from conception and should be protected. She’s the villain.”
_____
As for my fundamentalist family, there were very REAL abuse issues going on. My mother DID NOT protect me, because her marriage to my father was more important. Yet like you said she was anti abortion, so I guess from your perspective, that part of her character is more important.
DO NOT refer to my experiences as angst: they are real, and they come from a place of real experiences and real pain.
To lump us all in the same basket is offensive and wrong, and shows a complete and utter disrespect for those that are coming forward with stories of abuse, neglect and worse. And out of our old church group, the abuse statistics would astound and frighten you.
We have proven our stories in court, time and time again. Do not de-legitimise our stories for the sake of mothers that left us behind, some knowingly, some unknowingly.
Jo
Jo,
HONOR does not mean put them on a pedestal nor lie about the reality. It means to accurately weigh their impact upon your life. IF you fail to accurately weigh their impact, the passage indicates that it will NOT “go well with you”. ACCURATELY weighing means acknowledging the hurtful destructive aspects of what they did to you (Eph 6:4, immediately following the above section says “Fathers, do not exasperate [provoke to wrath -KJV] your children ; instead, bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord.” where “fathers” should be translated “parents”, its a greek plural which always takes the masculine even in a mixed group).
Did your parents exasperate you? Provoke you to wrath? That needs to be acknowledged. HOWEVER, did they teach or role model anything GOOD? What motivated their hearts? Are you judging their motivations as EVIL when really they were doing the best they could with what they had?
I pray you will be able to honor your parents accurately so that that your life may go well with you and you may enjoy living on the earth. IMO such a life would not include any root of self hatred manifesting itself by either extreme of this double sided coin.
Jo and Charis,
There is to me overwhelming evidence that Jesus saw the ordinary lives we lead as far from God’s intention for us. I emphasize again that normal was not good enough for Christ. So things that seem like they ought to be normal and decent–marriage for one, being a child or a parent for another–may be institutions that are far from God’s intent, so that the mere appearance of virtue is not enough.
Charis I have to say that in a way you are doing to Jo what others have done to you. She has said she was abused–you seem to be implying when you say:
“Did your parents exasperate you? Provoke you to wrath? That needs to be acknowledged. HOWEVER, did they teach or role model anything GOOD? What motivated their hearts? Are you judging their motivations as EVIL when really they were doing the best they could with what they had?”
That you are implying that you don’t believe her. Is that true?
Here we Go again…
number 1. RADICAL FEMINISTS ARE IN SEVERAL DIFFERENT CAMPS, people PLEASE DO SOME ‘GENDER STUDIES AND LEARN WHAT FEMINISM IS’
most Radical Feminists are PRO-MOTHER, and I know most of them are–what they are AGAINST IS THE LACK OF
AUTONOMY, CHOICE. Big difference…from the ‘anti-mother slam’.
There ARE those feminists that are very Anti-mother/anti-Birth and they tend to be more of the social engineering groups, and they can be found in Separatist feminism [usually to the more radical Lesbian side, but NOT all lesbians are anti-mother] and in Liberal camp AND in the Marxist camp–and THEY ARE A MINORITY…
REPEAT—A MINORITY.
The Only ones I ran into on the Ex=Quiverfull that were very well, how to put it, not friendly to the pro-birth [and I think it really has to do with miscommunication and lack of info on all sides which oddly you Don't find like on Women's Space, who is yes, a Lesbian, Pro-Choice and Pro-Mother/ex-Quiverfull who is a Radical Feminist, and on that board they do go into the Reproductive Rights on Both sides, to have Autonomy, to Have children or NOT to have but it being A WOMAN'S CHOICE--not COERCION.],
but only when I brought up the misogyny in eugenics and nation-state in the extreme forms of deconstructs did I get slammed, words twisted [I see that happening a lot, dogma, comes in all forms]
and well, it boils down to this, there is a Difference, between
Pro-Abortion and REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS.
I am of the REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS, that means, hands of the womb and let it be the Mother’s Choice–that means, not others, not the State, not the Science, but HER, autonomy–that means, no Forced abortions, Sterilizations either–Reproduce Rights is just that,
I, for one, am a Radical Feminist and do NOT agree with Abortion. I believe the Solution to the abortion problem is one, rid of economic Dependence on men, two, access to birth control, in areas where there is over population [like how many justified against my protests against eugenics for population control which I find Just as misogynist and patriarchal] is that, IF population is concerned then by golly get out the Vasectomy knives–that usually shuts them up pretty quick,
it’s never on the Men, you see–it really Is about Controlling women’s sexuality, anyhow, rid of the persecution to women [in all forms] for leaving abusive men, etc., and well,
the last, Stop promoting and perpetuating the women as nothing more than orifices for men and baby makers and primping them at Young ages and Empower girls to Be more than that–and you will See less unwanted Pregnancies…Period.
Oh, and well, castration for rapists–would Solve a lot of problems too, rather than Penalizing women, smacking his wrist while women do Far more time in Prison for Economic Crimes than a man Ever will do for Rape.
That would solve a lot too, but then, we’d have to Really go after Patriarchy and why, no body wants to really do that [not within the church that's for sure] because then we’d have to deconstruct Race privilege and Class privilege and the whole shabang…
OUCH.
But oh, wait, there ARE some doing that, those uh
Radical Feminists…demonized by just about everyone.
So, instead women remain in Chains, wondering why they Don’t get freedom,
duh.
But I hear what you are saying Charis…but really, what you are seeing, is just how deep, gender oppression goes and the Difficulties, in ridding of gender oppression…welcome to the dichotomies that Secular Feminists have been battling for years.
In solidarity,
Jane
Oh, and on the honor parents, I tend to see more from what Jo is saying here…I agree with her,
let me put it this way…
there are parents who sell their daughters into sex slavery in one area of Africa [there is organization of former sex slaves addressing this, posted on LiveHonestly Blog]
anyway…
so, do these women [whose lives yes, are damaged, many Dying of AIDS, many who will Never be able to have children due to the repeated rapes/tortures],
do they now, have to also List the Good their parents did–like, they didn’t Kill them at Birth,
to Honor them?
Because hey, obviously [sarcasm] they didn’t have ANY EVIL MOTIVES…they must have sold these girls for their own Good right?
Some parents simply don’t Deserve any Honor–period.
There ARE EVIL people who Have Children who have NO BUSINESS HAVING CHILDREN,
just because one spits out a kid, don’t mean they are Entitled to Honor–That does NOT make a Parent,
Honor thy Mother and Father, Parent–not,
any biological person who has you then abuses you to Destroy you…It’s NOT the definition of Honor that is in question but
the Definition of what Truly Qualifies as a Mother and Father.
Funny, though, we Never hear That one much–just saying…
something to think about.
Jane
You are not hearing me then, Jane.
HONOR does NOT mean “put on a pedestal” The Hebrew word for HONOR means “WEIGH” and is neutral. One WEIGHS the good and the bad.
There are two extremes I have seen.
1. Denial of all bad, looking at them through rose colored glasses- fear of criticizing or judging a parent because of a MISunderstand’s the biblical concept of “honor”
2. Painting them as monsters, denial of any good; Twisting of the truth to make them sound more evil than they really are
BIBLICAL HONOR will deny neither their bad nor their good but will weigh them accurately, truthfully.
I believe that Failure to render BIBLICAL HONOR will doom the offspring to repeating their parents failures (though they may repeat them on a “different side of the coin” and never realize that though they think they are rejecting their parents “badness”, they are really following right in their parents footsteps)
The command to HONOR is the only one with a promise “that it may go well with you and that you may enjoy life on the earth.”
Rob,
No, I believe that Jo was hurt deeply by her parents. I understand that. I have my own daughter named Jo whom I also hurt deeply. My point is that its not as black and white as what the Quivering Daughters paint it. They do not seem to grasp that their parents motivation is not to kill and destroy their spirits but to protect them.
That’s all I can say about that here because my privacy on this blog has recently been seriously compromised. You will just have to take my word for it. Sometimes what is over the line harsh is MOTIVATED by a desire to PROTECT them from harm. My own children understand this and have forgiven me for my harshness. AND I think they honor me, weigh me properly- understand the hurt I inflicted, but understand that I love them, regret causing them pain, and had a good motivation despite the way my own baggage affected my behavior.
For example, in musicmom’s post, she speaks in a way which honors her mother. She tells the truth about the abuse:
but she also recognizes her mother’s humanity, her frailty:
Charis…
Ooohh…. I am so sorry to see this post. There are women of all different stripes participating on NLQ. I want to believe that there is a way we can all discuss things in a mutually respectful manner. Just as I feel strongly about anyone villifying you, I feel the same way if you are villifying “them.”
I was a QF mom and I do not feel at all like I am unwelcome or unwanted on that board. Quite the opposite—-I feel it is an incredibly unique and powerful resource for ALL. I also feel that the voices of the daughters are important—their feelings, their perceptions, they matter just as much as anyone else’s, if not more so. Their pain is real and legitimate. (Would it be terribly painful to hear such voices, if I were a QF mom of adult daughters? Oh my goodness, yes….it would be horrible, just as I find it difficult to listen to the current Pearl discussion now. But that doesn’t make it no longer needful).
My only complaint about NLQ, to be honest, is that (I think partly because A.) there is a natural tendancy towards “bad manners” on the internet (see just about any forum-lol) since we can say awful things without having to look anyone in the eye, and partly because B.) so many women there have been so hurt and thus have so many open wounds and/or triggers that are easily sprung), we can sometimes be so viscious towards each other, instead of realizing that we can allow each other to have differing opinions and still remember that we are joined together in one voice towards a greater cause…
It is so disrespectful to not allow someone to have an alternative opinion. Respect and honor allow others to have their own voices, their own thoughts, their own opinions. We can disagree, and we can openly share how and why we disagree, but if we honor others, we disagree in a way that respects the personhood of the other person, in a way that disagrees with the IDEA, not denigrates the PERSON.
Who said everyone has to think the same way about everything? That’s a tenant of fundamentalism in all its forms (liberal, conservative, etc), an intolerance for alternative opinions (or the feeling that alternative opinions are a threat, a danger, an enemy).
It’s a terrible and destructive tenant, because it is literally impossible to take ANY group of people and have them all think the same way. It is also terrible, because it sets us up to think that all people who do NOT agree with us are enemies. So we can treat them with disrespect and derision because, now, they don’t “count” anymore because they’re not in our little camp. It is just so….yuck.
*beats head on wall*
I am so sad to see this. All of it—the attacks made on you, and now this response to it. There could have been, should have been, a way to discuss our way through the different vantage points in a manner that was respectful to all involved. I am so sorry you were hurt, (((charis))). I hope those of us participating at NLQ can grow to be the kind of place that is safe for QF moms and daughters, alike.
I think its impossible Journey.
I don’t consider “pro-life” something I need to recover from. I will always be pro-life and will NEVER understand being horrified by a born child’s death but not that of the unborn.
Nevertheless, I certainly hope you continue to write because your writing is powerful. If I JUST read the blog, mostly its OK and sometimes things that bug me are later corrected (eg the initial thrust of the Take Heart project was to help get women out of their marriages, but now that has been modified to allow more “choice”). Its the forums that seethe and every time I post there I wind up regretting it.
PS. I wanted to say on NLQ, but didn’t (I’m busy these days) that I didn’t mean at ALL that you need to recover from being “pro-life.”
I must have worded that wrong or something, because I wasn’t even talking about abortion at all. I don’t think that “recovery” means one will turn into a liberal feminist or a conservative evangelical. I think that recovery means healing the damage done so as to be more fully YOU, the woman God created….. To me, “recovery” means that open sores are turned into silvery scars, and, like the prophets, the desert wasteland turned into the vibrant oasis..
So that’s MY personal take on recovery, as a woman in the process of it..lol. I hope that makes more sense now. Recovery, in my mind, has absolutely nothing to do with opinions on abortion, political parties, religion, or anything like that, except in so far as those things may reflect the unique individual that is finding their own Voice.
Off-hand, as much as I understand some pro-choice arguments and resonate with them (particularly the ones that expound on how sucky it is that the *woman* gets saddled with the surprise pregnancy, while the guy can skip along his merry way—urgh), I am not sure I could ever fully become pro-choice. I “felt” my babies inside of me before I knew I was pregnant with them…just that deep inner sense that another person was there with me. It was the most uncanny thing.
Charis,
Thanks for letting me know what was going on. I didn’t know your privacy had been compromised, I’m sorry to hear about that.
I think the ‘sometimes’ is an important clarification. For example: my wife when we were first seeing one another sometimes yelled at the kids and snapped at them. However she was overwhelmed, a single mother and was trying to hold it all together. When I began helping her I introduced consequences for behavior and encouraged her by my actions–rarely if ever losing my temper, demonstrating that consequences and authority could work. So I don’t think this made her a bad mother, it just meant that she was too overwhelmed and too lacking in any real help to know what to do. She’s a very good mother, and was struggling with an at-home business and raising 2 kids. If the kids were to honour her for that time, they probably wouldn’t say that they were grateful for her yelling at them, but they should honour the sacrifices and efforts she made to provide for them and look after them.
On the other hand my own stepmother locked me in the basement, beat me, starved me. So I’m sure that we all see the difference–one is a loss of temper that given a better example was willing to change, much as you were. The other is someone who was doing evil which outweighed any good that they did. ‘Honouring’ her means what then? I think it means that I can say things like that she encouraged me to learn more about science, that she made my dad happy for a few years before things went south and that the first couple of years were fun. It means I can say that I learned lessons I will never forget about tyranny and abuse. It doesn’t mean I ever have to submit to her authority (not likely, she and my dad are divorced) or like her or anything like that.
Sometimes what I think about forgiveness is that it means releasing a debt. We forgive debts when someone doesn’t owe us. If we have a Father in Heaven who loves us utterly we don’t need for any particular person to come through for us, we need God to come through for us. So we forgive debts because our real Father has more, lots more. Forgiving my abusive stepmother and my neglectful mother meant letting them go; it meant being free to accept moments of motherhood from other women: my grandmother, a woman at the church who taught about redemption, until I was free.
Is that somewhat what you meant about honouring your parents?
Ironic how the same women can express such (justifiable) rage over the death of a child at the hands of her QF parents, while simultaneously defending a mother’s “right” to KILL her unborn child. Now the RAGE is not directed at the MURDER of the child but with laser beam precision at any one who would DEFEND the child’s right to live. It strikes me as inconsistent and double-minded.
Charis,
I agree with you. I feel the same, but I also know that some people just can’t hear it. trying to explain the inconsistency of the position is similar to trying to explain the inconsistency of patriarchy. Those who believe a woman has the right to decide what will happen with her body, and ought to reign sovereign over her fertility, tend to deny the equal worth of the unborn child, and it’s rights. Those who believe a man has the right to the last word, to reign sovereign over his family, deny the equality of his wife, and tend to deny many rights to his children. Both believe very deeply that they understand the issue better than you do, and that if you were just a good enough Christian or a good enough Feminist, you’d get it too.
Just my opinon and why you won’t find me engaging in a debate over abortion. At least not at this time
Charis -
Wow. Just, wow.
*shakes head*
Rob,
Your telling the truth about your mother is HONORING in the biblical sense, even the exposing of the abuse, because “to honor” is to WEIGH and you have weighed the situation accurately. If you were to believe that HONOR means you have to only say warm fuzzy things about her, then that’s denial and you might wind up repeating her sins since you didn’t recognize them.
My husband has done things a lot like his father and I think he lives in a great deal of denial about how his father treated him and likes to view his father through rose colored glasses. For example, his father heaped rejection on him from the time he was 6 months old because he was a farmer and his newborn was deathly ill and hospitalized with asthma (a condition which is a serious handicap for farming). My husband used to get angry when one of our children had a cough and scream at me “can’t you shut that stupid kid up?” Can you see how that was not unlike his own father? The apple did not fall far from the tree.
Rob, you, on the other hand, acknowledge your stepmother’s abuse. And you are by far one of the most sensitive and wise people I have ever read responding to and counseling abused women. The fact that you weighed your stepmother accurately (honored her) has been very healthy for you.
Its healthy and right for everyone to accurately weigh the impact of their parents upon them. I would go so far as to say that it is an essential step toward overcoming the baggage.
“Ironic how the same women can express such (justifiable) rage over the death of a child at the hands of her QF parents, while simultaneously defending a mother’s “right” to KILL her unborn child.”
Yea, and we See how many of these Pro-Lifers [who are also most of them Anti-Birth Control, Anti-ChildCare, Anti-Health Care for low income children, Anti-Assistance for Mothers with Children because why by golly they are amoral, right, all single teen mothers and welfare queens, so What if those kid's starve/are pimped out, etc]
and How many of these Pro-Lifers are Marching on the Streets Demanding
CHILD SUPPORT ENFORCEMENT.
OR
marching on the Streets DEMANDING THE END OF TRAFFICKING/SLAVERY OF THOUSANDS OF CHILDREN BORN VIA FORCED PREGNANCIES–IN NATIONS WHERE WOMEN DON’T EVEN HAVE THE RIGHT TO
ACCESS TO ‘PRENATAL CARE’ because of OUR polices Against
Birth Control, Abortion and Reproductive Rights…
why that is Why I see All these Pro-Lifers with their Concern for Children Marching against
the Chocolate Industry for the BILLION DOLLARS OF CHOCOLATE WE WOLF DOWN OUR THROATS, MADE BY
OH MY, CHILD SLAVES, SOLD FOR THIRTY DOLLARS A ‘PIECE’,
and all the Cotton we buy farmed by MORE CHILD SLAVES,
and that Includes children Exploited in THIS nation–
because it’s ALL ABOUT
CONCERN FOR CHILDREN.!
And of course, why we see All those PRO-LIFERS
MARCHING BY THE THOUSANDS IN WASHINGTON D.C. TO DEMAND GOVERNMENT TO
DO SOMETHING, ABOUT THESE SO CALLED ‘CHRISTIANS’ WHO TEACH
CHILD ABUSE AND HOW TO ABUSE CLASSES AND CULTS WHO HOLD DOWN GIRLS WHILE THE MEN RAPE THEM
oh yes, I forgot,
it’s All about
CHILDREN’S RIGHTS AND THE CONCERN FOR POOR, LITTLE CHILDREN…
boo hoo
Right, Whatever,
meanwhile, we get a 2 million dollar ad for Family Values,
while How many of those walk by Homeless Children in This nation, IGNORE THEM
that scarf down Slave blood chocolate and other consumer goods [knowingly Made by child slaves in nations where WOMEN CAN'T AFFORD TO CARE FOR 20 KIDS IMPOVERISHED WITH NO WATER, ETC]
and oh, let’s not Even go into the blackmarket Adoption industry, women in America Paying Poor women in India, Exploiting Their wombs because you know American women ARE SPECIAL AND ENTITLED TO CHILDREN
AND SO WHAT IF ONE MORE BROWN WOMAN POOR ‘HEATHEN’ HAS TO SELL HER WOMB TO FEED HER OTHER POOR CHILDREN,
THAT’S, THE ONES WHO LIVE…
while their Sisters Die from High Rates of MATERNAL DEATHS–again, due to NO Reproductive Rights…
why, you’re Right,
you know right, let me know, the Next time there is a HUGE, HUGE PROTEST BY ‘PRO LIFERS’ ON THE PROTECTION OF CHILDREN, ONCE THEY
PASS THAT ‘FETUS’ STAGE,
SO I CAN MARCH WITH THEM…
I’m Sure, by That time, I’ll be probably too old to march [lol] or long Dead,
or Hell will Freeze Over.
Jane
Sea.
head shaking and finger waggng is why I’ll comment here instead of on your board
madame,
As far as not engaging in debate on abortion, I am not willing to walk around on eggshells so as not to offend the radical pro=abortion feminists. Spent too many years walking around on eggshells so as not to set off the “patriarch”
No more eggshells for me.
Please let me know if my quoting you makes you uncomfortable. I don’t want to subject you to NLQ backlash and I will take it down or change the name to protect you if you wish
Charis I don’t hang much on the QF forum, but I did see many take up for you, against one poster [ironically even with my radical stand on Reproductive Rights I ran into issues with the same exact poster--who then got a pack of wolves to jump down my ass [and twisted what I said against Eugenics--and that 'hidden but sinister philosophy that is, Yes, behind a lot of the pro-abortion movement, I won't deny it, it is There, I've debated them, on many Population Control [that isn't about Reproductive Rights btw but about protecting white hegemony over resources at the expense of forced coerced abortions/sterilizations of women of color in other countries],
so Don’t get me wrong, I know exactly what you are getting at–there IS a real defensive and Hostile ‘anger’ directed towards women that are pro-mother, pro-birth, pro-stay at home, etc.,
Because of the fact that Sadly, there are MEN AND POLEMICS OUT THERE THAT WANT TO ‘FORCE ALL WOMEN INTO THIS’
do these women have a point? Sure they do–
are they right in being hostile to Any woman who does not concur with the anti-mother ideology, NO, they don’t…
but on Both sides, there tends to be this type of self righteous I’m right you’re wrong demonization crap going on…
and well, I don’t know, really maybe this is One area that there won’t be really any solidarity, simply because for one woman having children to her is the greatest thing and so forth…
and nothing wrong with that–on the Other hand,
it doesn’t Stop there, does it?
For years, in This nation [and in other nations] women have been not just fighting for abortion rights [and I don't agree with abortion, but dare let Anyone tell one of my daughters who God forbid were ever ganged raped that they MUST BY LAW have that child...I'd kill them, I swear I would--to me that is the most cold blooded woman hating crap there Is--Especially when they are Forcing, like in one country in Central America a 10 year old to have a child forced on her by Incest-Rape...they Church never DID EXCOMMUNICATE THE SOB WHO RAPED THAT LITTLE GIRL
BUT OH THEY SURE DEMANDED THE THREE WHO TRIED TO ASSIST THIS POOR GIRL [WHO PROBABLY WOULD HAVE DIED HAVING THAT CHILD] TO GET AN ABORTION–THEY SLAMMED THEM
and it’s NOT just about Abortion–in My state we had to Fight–to Keep rights to Birth Control [the head spokesperson for this bill an upper class white woman who of course, could probably Pay to get access to if SHE were ever raped or SHE wanted to leave a husband beating the crap out of her and he got her pregnant -- maybe by marital rape--to Keep her in prison to him, not so for women of low income, who ARE in those situs]
how DARE any woman, tell women you Have to have kids because by golly that is OUR RELIGIOUS BELIEF? HOW DARE THEY,
what’s next–Stoning Rape Victims?
I mean…Seriously…
I can See why there are women who get Really Furious over this–as do I…
so, Really, Whose to blame here?
The Women,
or the Men and the Religious Polemics that are HELL BENT, ON FORCING ALL WOMEN
INTO THE DARK AGES, ON OUR BACKS, WITH OUR LEGS IN A CONSTANT V POSITION…
WHILE MEN, ARE FREE TO WALK AWAY AND DO AS THEY DAMN WELL PLEASE,
WITH US, OUR BODIES, OUR CHILDREN, OUR LIVES…
when Women, GET THAT, then it’s not really about Abortion Pro Life,
it’s about, Women. And their Right, to Decide, whether or not, to Have Children…and not be Forced too–
as for abortion as a means of birth control, I’m against it, always have been, I do think it’s gotten Way out of hand…with Freedom Comes RESPONSIBILITY
but Here is the Deal on this too,
Why the Hell, aren’t MEN, if they are SO DAMN CONCERNED ABOUT ABORTION
doing MORE, to PREVENT ABORTIONS IN THE FIRST PLACE–BY HOW THEY ACT–HOW THEY RAPE–HOW THEY ABUSE–HOW THEY REFUSE, TO THIS DAY, TO TAKE
ANY RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR PART IN CREATING A CHILD…
EVER HEARD OF A CONDOM?
Funny, WE NEVER, HEAR ABOUT THAT…
it’s Always, the women pitted against the women
and the Men, get to Play Baby…all the way to the road to freedom.
Jane
Charis,
Thank you very much for what you said. I think you said some very wise things about honouring your parents.
Charis,
I was kind of surprised to see my 1st installment that I wrote for Vyckie’s site posted somewhere else. I guess there are no rules for taking someone else’s work without permission on the web, but I must say, it didn’t feel good to me.
Also wanted to clarify to everyone else reading this that Claris’s point (using my writing) was not the point I was trying to make. Yes, my mother’s feminism SEEMED to be the source of my childhood misery. What I came to find out much later, when it was almost too late, was that feminism is fine and good. It is helpful and needed for women – it has been helpful and needed for me, getting out of my terrible marriage.
What I couldn’t see, as a small child, was that my immature mother used the excuse of feminism to justify abandoning being a mother. She had MAJOR abandonment issues of her own, her marriage was crumbling and she was an alcoholic. Feminism wasn’t the problem – it was just easier for me to blame it than to blame my mother (who was sporatically kind and loving to me when she felt like it).
So, just for the record, THE WRITER OF THIS ARTICLE is not anti-feminism. I am thankful to it and I think it is has been instrumental in empowering women and supporting battered wives and abused children.
Charis,
I don’t mind you quoting me.
Hi musicmom,
Thank you for visiting and thank you for an insightful contribution to the NLQ Blog. I only quoted a very small bit. Readers will miss out on a great deal of your story.unless they visit the link provided.
As far as feminism goes, I am not sure whether we disagree? I believe that women are equual and should have iequal rights and opportunities, but I do not support abortion, porn, and the like. IOW “radical pro-abortion” qualifies the term.
Again, wow.
For the record, I’d like to point out that 1. NLQ is not MY forum – it’s a forum that’s open to anyone who has something to say and that 2. I’m shaking my head not because I am chastizing you, but because I feel confused and saddened that when you deliberately trigger some Daughters with your Mother-Stance you react like you’ve been unfairly attacked!
Generally, I don’t like to make *pronouncements* but I can’t help myself on this one – Being a Mother does not make you God, or in any way god-like.
Oh, and here’s a question that I challenge you to answer directly: Where did you get the idea that feminists “support abortion, porn, and the like.”?
I think that Jane makes a point. Abortion is like a desperate act for most of those who get one even today. The church’s response to such things ought to be as John the Baptist advocates–going for the roots of the tree of sin. So for example the issue of abortion is not really the abortions themselves, much as we might wonder about the lives lost, but rather about why they are sought out in the first place. This is not to say that there are not people who might abort a pregnancy just for selfish reasons, but what I have noticed every time I talked to a woman who had considered one or had had one is that she had been SCARED. And scared of what? Of in effect losing her life. Of being desperate and alone. The church, by responding to the abortion themselves and not looking past them to say “No woman who becomes pregnant and comes to our church for help will ever be scorned or neglected–she will find the loving arms of God’s family” has failed the women in such desperate circumstances.
I mean…if it’s going to treat with a subtle and sometimes not so subtle contempt those women who ARE having big families and submitting whether or not they have children to God and who are married and struggling in those marriages…
And so it ironically divides women themselves into camps–pro-life/pro-choice; pro-feminism/’good christian ladies’; quiverfull/pro-birth control etc. When really I see all women still suffering because of the insidious evil within all human society that hates life.
sea,
answer to your challlenge:
I repeat: “radical pro-abortion” is a QUALIFIER of the term feminist. I am an active supporter and promoter of BIBLICAL feminism alla Katherine Bushnell.
I got the idea that feminists support abortion from NLQ and the vitriol coming my way every time I have posted anything pro-life..
I got the idea they support Porn from some info Jane posted about NOW
BTW’ “DELIBERATELY trigger” the daughters? TBH, I saw a post by a triggered daughter and my heart goes out to her and the other QD’s. They are not the ones who attacked me. Pity you think blaming them is helpful.
As a moderator with a great deal of authority on that board, (even if you are not the owner), I suggest that you institute some sub-boards to avoid the triggering issue.
1. For QUIVER FULL DAUGHTERS
2. For QUIVER FULL MOTHERS
3 For Atheist Pro-Abortion Feminists.
Then Quiver full mothers who ARE GENERALLY PRO-LIFE and have NO INTENTION OF APOLOGIZING FOR THAT AND NO NEED TO “RECOVER” FROM IT can have a thread against abortion and discuss it without being character assassinated!
Rob and Jane,
I have a great deal of compassion for women who have committed abortion. I have close experience with it, blood on my own hands, you might say. I’ll have to leave it there and you’ll have to take my word for it.
Actually, the issue that got me excoriated on NLQ THIS time was the fact that one of the mechanisms of hormonal methods of BC is that they cause micro-abortions of fertiliized eggs and one Christmas when they were both there, I tried to dissuade my married daughter and DIL from using them. They did not want to hear it and lectured me about it (both are in PA school), and it grieved me because it is an issue I care deeply about. I never used hormonal birth control, ever- even before we were QF- because of its abortifacient properties. There are effective barrier methods of BC.
I used to believe that all aborted babies went to hell. Now I think they all go to heaven, so maybe I’ll have lots of grandchildren there who were conceived, but never born, never felt pain, and got to go right to heaven. That is not such a bad thing. I can live with that.
“I used to believe that all aborted babies went to hell. Now …”
Charis, {{{{{hugs}}}}
Sister, breathe, for starters, ok…I’m not good at helping with others with their triggers but I can sort of sense it with you right now so I’ll try, to do my best here…I may not say the right things, but I say this with and in Love, with all my heart, to you,
I used to question the children and death and hell belief too, [among some other beliefs that traditionally are taught in many churches that I know now from God's Word and the Holy Spirit are pure BUNK, lies from Satan to keep us thinking 'evil' about God, about who God is]. Satan has kept you Bound up here, some way…I don’t know the ‘exact details’ but I sense it–
Jesus said of children, of ‘such is the Kingdom of God’, they are Covered by His Love and Mercy and Grace through HIS BLOOD, I believe prior to His Death if small children died they were covered under the Atonement, until Jesus–I KNOW THIS with ALL MY HEART…because Jesus spoke of accountability as did God, all over the OT…we are Accountable for What we Know. After Jesus, it’s not ‘sins’ that get us into hell but the Rejection of His Grace, of Refusing His Salvation and transformation, for Refusing His Tree of Life, of Refusing His Lordship over our life [numerous parables He spoke that relay these facts, to Those who have ears let them hear, the sheep know His voice]–that He has offered, a Gift, we All are born with the Sin Nature–all have fallen short of the glory of God [Romans], children/infants especially do have that nature but they do not Act on it, by free will, with a Consciousness and understanding of What they are doing, not until the Age of Accountability which is Different I believe for everyone [during childhood/teen years], but I understand it–I can’t explain it, but I see and understand it…
of Such is the Kingdom of God, Jesus said–do not forbid them to come unto me…of such, is the Kingdom of God, another place, one Must become like a little child to come into the Kingdom of Heaven…[not verbatim but you get my point], oh, I wish I could put this into words…
Fear, this Fear you have, that you’re responsible for the choices your Adult children [once they reach age of accountabiliity] and it’s being on you…on your shoulders, Charis, Ezekiel, where it says, the sins of the fathers will not be on the sons and vice versa but each individual will give account unto God etc—what is fair, what is not, if the wicked turn from their way and turn to Him He will wipe out all they did prior but if the righteous turn from Him and turn unto wickedness He will forget All they did prior if they die in that…and Israel said That’s not Fair’ and God says….
we are and do have a very strong responsibility to be good stewards of the reconciliation Gospel [what Paul called it] towards our Children–yet our Children once they REACH the age of ACCOUNTABILITY are Still responsible to GOD for THEIR CHOICES…APART FROM US…in other words, no matter What my parent may have done, though it does influence, one thing I know without a shadow of doubt, it in NO way, will be a Reason, for me to Ever, reject Christ or to not Obey Him…to Refuse Him, to Refuse His Love. With the accountability I have from what I know, I’ll be judged with–does that make sense?
I know like when I was twenty what I knew then I will be judged by then but what I know NOW–especially after Tasting God is Good, really now Knowing who Christ is [before I knew 'religion' and about Christ, not Christ INTIMATELY], I will be held far more Accountable now–does that make sense? I know this, to be true, God has shown this to me, in such a real way that well, I just know—there is also a scripture in NT, can’t recall which at this moment about this, in regards to stewardship and accountability…
my point is, God knows our hearts [even Paul says God will make light the hidden things] and I know, God is Merciful–more merciful than WE know, because of the darkness we are in, like Mara said once here, the little fragments of light we get and we get more [the lamp and oil] and Jesus said, to be faithful to what light we see/have, if NOT, He will remove what we have,
it’s be Revelation, not dead letter of the law…that we are held liable for,
“maybe I’ll have lots of grandchildren there who were conceived, but never born, never felt pain, and got to go right to heaven.”
Charis, other than a direct abortion, and I am no expert here on this, theologically o.k., but, IF God WILLS a Soul to be born here–all the BC in the world won’t stop it. That I DO know, one can get Pregnant even while on BC and even with tubes tied, I remember them telling me there are some ‘freak’ chances that one can still get pregnant–it’s rare, but it Can happen, your chances for tubal pregnancies go up but still–unless there is complete removal through surgery of uterus/etc or an abortion of fetus, or miscarriage, God can still open the womb and bring that child…we forget, in Bible it is God who Opens the Womb–the Matrix,
I don’t think many really ‘think’ on that too much–I don’t know about whether or not, like all the aborted babies are souls, whether souls are there at what age [in utero], I don’t know, I don’t believe like how all these pro-life [fear mongers who use fear to guilt women] like there are all these aborted ‘souls’ up in Heaven, I don’t know if I believe that–maybe, maybe not,
I had four children Charis with four different fathers [two while married] [you know a bit about my life, my life on streets, etc, running away, so forth, the abuse] and I had, twice, contemplated abortion, I was Homeless with my second daughter–I had Seriously contemplated it–I had no family, no support, had just moved to a new city, just got a ‘temp’ job, already had a daughter I was supporting with no child support or help from Her father, I had Her alone, at home, with NO PRENATAL, NO HELP, THE ONLY REASON I DIDN’T HAVE HER WITH THE FIRE DEPARTMENT–WAS A MIDWIFE WHO I KNEW, WHO FOUND OUT, WHILE I WAS 8 MONTHS PREGNANT, I HAD NO CARE, I didn’t qualify for Medicaid and in TX the help for Low income single mothers [in the Bible Belt of all places] was nill to None, I got NO HELP FROM ANY CHURCH THERE, JUST SHUNNED, and if Any one had An excuse, to Have an abortion in
EITHER PREGNANCY, I DID.
I did Charis, I had NOTHING, afraid, alone, no help, no one Cared [funny it was Planned Parenthood that talked me OUT of an abortion with my son and my youngest daughter by telling me IF I had any reservations NOT to, to Do what was best for ME---and THEY HELPED ME, EMOTIONALLY CHARIS, when I asked them, on the phone, questions when I called once, they said and I'll never forget it, IF it bothers your conscience DO NOT DO IT...we will Help and SUPPORT YOU NO MATTER WHAT YOUR DECISION, YES, THAT WAS PLANNED PARENTHOOD
and because of THEM, NOT BECAUSE OF PRO-LIFE, BUT BECAUSE OF THEM, NOT BECAUSE OF 'ANYONE IN THE CHURCH',
I had the courage, to face LOSING EVERYTHING AND I DID, AND KEEP MY CHILD.
I lost Everything--sure enough, having one child to support already with pre-cervical cancer and didn't Qualify for Medicaid, made just enough to barely pay Rent and Daycare for one--I look back now and I really don't know How in the world I made it--well we Didn't make it, we were on THE STREETS---and I will NEVER, CHARIS, NEVER NEVER
FORGET, HOW SEVERAL CHURCHES TREATED ME, WHILE PREGNANT, AND AFTER SHE WAS BORN AND MY TWO GIRLS THEN--WHEN WE WERE HOMELESS, I WILL NEVER, IN ALL MY LIFE, FORGET
THEIR COLDNESS, THEIR TURNING THEIR BACKS, FROM WOMEN WHEN I ASKED FOR HELP EVEN FOR 'BUS TOKENS' FROM A COUPLE OF CHURCHES THEIR STUCK UP FACES, I WON'T FORGET IT CHARIS
EVER....
but I will remember, how it was Planned Parenthood, twice, who did NOT reject me or make me feel Stupid or Dumb for getting pregnant and who told me, IF your conscience is NOT AT PEACE WITH ABORTION DON'T DO IT....WE WILL SUPPORT YOU EITHER WAY, WE ARE HERE FOR YOU.
I NEVER, GOT THAT FROM CHURCH--NOT EVEN FROM THE PREGNANCY CENTER, FOR MONTHS, IT WAS HEY POOR WHITE TRASH YOU SHOULD ADOPT OUT, ADOPT, THE PRESSURE TO ADOPT OUT AS IF I HAD NO FEELINGS, THAT I BECAUSE I WAS POOR, HOMELESS, WHY I COULDN'T BE A MOTHER, COULD I, I WASN'T WORTHY ENOUGH, NOT SMART ENOUGH, NOT MARRIED ENOUGH--
PRESSURE, PRESSURE, GUILT PRESSURE
only ONE woman, ONE, Christian woman, who worked in the Pregnancy Center, when she Realized I wasn't going to give up my child [or children] [I had lost my first I wasn't going to Ever, have a child Ripped out of my arms like I was some cheap nothing Incubator EVER AGAIN, JUST BECAUSE I WAS POOR],
she did help me, but in a new city, she was the Only support I had, my and my daughter, and my unborn, whom I was high risk–nearly lost her, placenta tore–IF anyone had Any reason, Numerous reasons to Abort, I DID…
but I just couldn’t. Maybe it was losing my first child, I don’t know, I just had a very Strong Maternal Instinct–always did and always have…but I would not ever Force that on any other Woman, NEVER,
because I KNOW…..I don’t hate Pro-Life for their so called ‘concern’ for the ‘Fetus’, I hate them because I HAVE BEEN THERE CHARIS
AND THEY WERE NOT THERE—FOR ME…NOR FOR MY ‘FETUSES’,
only ONE man, from the Pro-Life, at a March of all places, I was about six months then, I told him, to his face, they were nothing but liars, told him just a Little about my situ, he could See me and my daughter, He had to have known, he gave me some money, I didn’t Ask for it, I didn’t want it [pride, you know poor folks Do have some pride and Dignity, though most dont get that], but I could see in his eyes, he Did care–but he told me, he understood many do NOT, even in the Pro-Life movement, they care with their ‘speeches’ but not really,
I KNOW, CHARIS—I look and hear all this family value crap and I think, no I just LAUGH….BECAUSE I KNOW,
TWICE, I KNOW…AND ONLY ‘GOD’ HELPED ME, THROUGH CERTAIN PEOPLE–AND MOST OF THEM
NOT
CHRISTIAN.
And you know, I know that GOD’S KNOWS, GOD SEES, OH HE SEES…..HE SEES,
I know what it is, I have seen Other women go through it, I have slept in HOMELESS SHELTERS with Numerous Pregnant women and single Mothers, not Druggies, not Whores, not Single teen mothers only–but with women with MS who can’t work, who have been Trashed by society, women with severe Epilepsy, one woman whose House burned down, a single mother of five and CPS took her kid’s away because she was Poor and the Shelters there [in KY] didn’t house that many children so Until SHE could AFFord her attorney, a house, by Herself, she would NOT get her kids’ back, NOT FOR NEGLECT, NOT FOR ABUSE, BUT FOR BEING A WIDOW, POOR,
POOR….WITH FIVE OR MAYBE IT WAS SIX, CHILDREN…
do you Think the Church helped her Charis, all her Fetuses?
NO.
No they didn’t, and I saw this TIME AND TIME AND TIME…
talk is CHEAP…it’s just TALK
there ARE churches [small, like ones you would never see, usually small ones like in basements in inner cities that Do help--poor folks like the rest of us],
who Help, with getting in the Pit with the rest–there are of course those big churches that help IF you are in their ‘district’ or a ‘member’ and all that…
I’ll take that small black church in the basement with the soup kitchen ANY DAY, thank you very much…
over the big polish Any day.
[sorry, how this got into this I have no idea]…
the thing is Charis–this Fear you have, this about all these unborn grandchildren, I KNOW, that is NOT how God works or how God is, God does NOT TORMENT US WITH THAT–RELIGION DOES, NOT GOD,
if I know ONE Thing, about God, and Children–about Unborn Children,
God is not in the nightmare lets post bloody fetuses business–Oh no,
God is on the Streets in those rooms and in those alleys with those Women with those unborn, CARING FOR THE MOTHER–
FOR HER.
All this fear and guilt–the ‘oh all those unborn from BC, THAT isn’t from God…God don’t work like that.
Not the God I know…Not the Jesus I know,
He is Mercy,
I am seeing this, more and more…Religion will NEVER, GET IT…
God sees what is at the Root of abortions, poverty, prostitution,
people Don’t.
But God does–and He judges, according to Those decisions in Those circumstances FAIRLY…God is a JUST JUDGE,
JUST.
This nation, will be held MORE accountable for the loss of Children, both Unborn and Born, than all the mothers with child, with no support, or little support OR WOMBS WHO DON’T KNOW THAT YES, GOD LOVES THEM–THEY AREN’T INCUBATORS, THEY ARE HIS CREATION—
MARK MY WORDS, ON THAT ONE.
I know…
Don’t let Satan, put this Fear on you, this torment, Grace Charis…
God has not given us a spirit of Fear, of Torment…
there were ‘herbs’ in the Bible times that were used to aid in birth control, many still use them–there are herbs that are dangerous abortants, that you Don’t use, if you want to keep a child–there are herbs that help with strengthening the uturus and aid with menstruation, etc.,
we have lost those knowledge due to modernization and due to PATRIARCHY–but the Mothers of Old, knew, those old Hags,
Leah, used Mandrakes…
so this whole thing about BC, I don’t have issue with…now I don’t agree for myself for abortion, that is my personal decision…and I have Peace about that…
for You, You personally Charis, this may be your conviction on BC and that is what YOU need to do, that is between you and God–and I am O.K. with that…
that is what Freedom is, what Grace is, I can’t live in YOUR skin or in YOUR body–only God can,
same with you daughters, same with Any woman out there,
God opens up the womb
if Any know WOMEN ON THE INSIDE–IT IS GOD,
whether they See it or not, or see how Valuable in God’s eyes they are, is up to them–NOT for being incubators or chattels or ‘vessels for men’ but for God’s JOY and Creation–oh yes,
I will say it, God has JOY IN HIS CREATED DAUGHTERS…THE FEMININE, THE VIRGIN, THE YOUNG LOVER-MAIDEN, THE MOTHER, THE GRANDMOTHER, THE HAG…OH YEA I believe this with Every fiber of my being–
the Patriarchs will not see it BECAUSE THEY DON’T SEE WHO GOD IS.
on the Spiritual level…they call it evil and they call it dirty and they call it debase
those same Patriarchs who REJECTED GOD ON EARTH–REJECTED CHRIST, WHO PLANNED TO KILL HIM AND THEY DID…
if the Princes of this world Knew, they would have Never Crucified our Lord,
I love you Charis, just know that, may the Peace of God, comfort you today, may His blanket of Love wrap you up today and soothe the fears away…the condemnation and all the Lies of MEN…
HE is in control–over Every seed and Every source of LIFE–
HE IS,
not us.
HE IS…CAST IT ON HIM.
After all–without Him, there IS no LIFE. And no amount of Science, will Ever, undo that….
think about it.
Love,
Jane
Oh, those children…[the youngest while in hosp not even two hours after she was born--because I was poor, CPS tried to take her, I had to Fight for her, I didn't Use drugs, didn't drink, my Crime--I WAS POOR--I had to Fight, to keep her]
she is 14 now, Beautiful, Artistic, and Fine…my other, 17, has a job, is Beautiful, Smart, Personality to boot [though she's been a hellion at times] and my son…10,
I made it–God pulled me THROUGH–AND ONLY
GOD.
God my Father and God my Mother, oh yea you heard me Patriarchy, God my Mother…
in Jesus,
and He-She is Still showing me every day, his-her father-mother side, friend side, even lover side [to heal the wounds from abusive MEN],
and all this Misogynist Crap–one day, God will, Avenge,
that, I am SURE OF….MORE AND MORE AND MORE.
Love,
Jane
Charis,
I’m sorry if it seemed like I was speaking against you, I was actually trying to speak clarification on the issue. I know you are a compassionate person.
Hi Charis. As an ex-QF, christian, pro-life, long time poster on NLQ I am quite hurt by your post here. On a personal level I have replied to quite a few of your posts there in a spirit of agreement, including on the topic of abortion. You have never responded to me, choosing instead to keep looking for a battle with those whose opinions differ from yours. I have had to conclude that you are not looking for kindred souls there but looking for people to be angry with.
I see that even after Journey replied to you that she was not saying you would “process” into being pro-choice you still repeat this as though you were told on NLQ that this is what was expected. This has been my experience trying to talk with you there which has led me to conclude you are there to do battle rather than find common ground. Even in the thread you post about above I wrote a long and supportive post to you but you ignored it in order to keep arguing with others.
Your suggestion of dividing NLQ into sections based on being mothers, daughters, atheists really misses the point of the forum. Most everyone there has been abused by patriarchal and twisted interpretations of the bible, *that is our common ground*. For the most part we really do get along well and learn from each other. It’s healthy to accept that people will come to different places in their life after leaving religious abuse behind. Unlike what the abusive systems teach us we are not all aiming to be exactly the same.
I hope you know you are always welcome back.
Rob,
I don’t say this to many Men, but I see Christ in you and Hear Him in you…
your words earlier today, hit home…when God does that, I know…
I thanked God for your wife, for sharing you with us all here…God will bless you for your kindness, Authentic kindness, and I don’t say This often either,
but I am honored to know you,
Brother.
Love, your sister in Christ
Jane
Rob, when Peter left the boat, fishing boat, his income, I believe he must have been quite young, when adding/subtracting the years of his writing 1 Peter [something like 50 or 60 A.D. so I subtracted from there] just a rough estimate,
so I would assume he was probably in his early twenties or late teens, which in that day wouldn’t be surprising since they did marry young and life span in hard areas probably was on average 50 [due to empire oppression, disease, work injuries, war--there is always a mention of the widows, in Acts, so kind of adding things together] anyway…
so I picture Peter, going off to follow Jesus, I am sure, like most societies that are more tribal/communal [like parts of Middle East/rural areas today still] and I’m sure his income Did help the family, not just his immediate–so he had to like be concerned there,
thing is Rob
one of the First healings mentioned, is Jesus coming to stay with Peter and His healing Peter’s mother-in-law…she had a fever and obviously was pretty sick, we think fever in These days is like a cold but fevers in Africa, can be malaria, typhus, you know, can Kill you…I know from Historic studies the work load on women that did NOT have the privilege of having ‘servants’ was harsh–a full days just to grind bread [mill] and linens [spinning] and that on Top of children so other women in the household if they got sick
it wasn’t just how it would effect the workload of the woman [wife] but also Family INCOME, because linens were sold like at markets, every spare bit I am sure [like how many sell at Flea Markets today for that extra food money], except then the taxes to the Roman Empire were Harsh–like bleeding the Peasant harsh,
Jesus healed Peter’s mother in law, showing Intimate concern and care for one, Peter’s wife, for Her giving him to the Lord’s Service and well you know what I mean there–and also to Provide for Peter’s family,
to let Peter know, I AM your provider, the God that Healeth Thee…
the first healing–I recall reading that, several times, Jesus took care of His Disciples AND THEIR FAMILIES…
wanted to share that to you today.
Love,
Jane
Jane ~ I have no idea what to say ~ but I just have to respond because your post above about what you went through with your four children brought tears to my eyes ~ I cannot imagine the pain you’ve endured and I wish there were some way that I could comfort you.
I am glad, Jane ~ that you still have your faith in God because I know the strength and the peace which comes from trusting in Jesus ~ I don’t have that anymore and sometimes, like when I read about single moms struggling just to survive and to provide for their children and to keep their babies as you have ~ I wish that I could pray and feel that comfort and the assurance that the Lord is in control and all of this is part of His eternal plan.
I don’t even have a point here ~ just saying how it is and that I feel for you and I admire your strength and your faith.
I wanna say, “bless you” or something ~ but I can’t and you don’t need that from me ~ you obviously are already blessed without any help from me. You have blessed me with your transparency and with the sharing of your pain which I know runs very deep ~ it would be easier to keep all of that to yourself ~ to forgive and forget and to focus on a happy testimony. Your honesty humbles me and your faith inspires me.
Peace.
Vyckie
Thank you Jane, that meant a lot to me to hear. I want to mention that I talk to my wife about everything discussed here and have showed her some of it. So it’s not just me posting, but me with my wife’s encouragement and agreement. She is probably one of the best people I’ve ever known, kind, generous, brave and smart and funny. She is also very concerned about how women’s hearts are still neglected within the church, and their bodies taken for granted. My wife is involved with helping provide sustainable water purification systems in third world countries. I’m very proud that I’m with such a woman!
I think something that I would take from your examples is that God does real things. What Hannah referred to I believe in her blog as ‘magic pixie dust’ doesn’t enter into it. So in God’s words to us we hear of captives freed, widows aided, the sick healed, the orphans parented, the naked clothed, the hungry fed. So I am praying and hoping for real change for those in need. Most of all that people who are in a position to help them and speak out on their behalf and stand in faith with them will have the ears to hear and the eyes to see.
Again, thank you very much. Coming from someone who cares so much about what happens to others, who is such a fighter for justice, that means such a lot.
Arietty,
My suggestion is not to “divide”. My suggestion is to “multiply”. Not to take down what exists, nor to “restrict” people to any one forum (necessarily, though I think the dedicated forums I have suggested may need to be restricted to keep them safe.
But, I don’t expect my suggestions or input there to be respected nor have a fair hearing. No different than a patriarchal marriage, really, and no place for me thank you very much!
So be it.
I did not catch up with all the comments, just quickly read the ones in moderation before work
I will leave the discussion open as long as it remains civil, but I have turned the comment widget off for my own privacy due to the sensitive nature of some of the things I have mentioned and my recent loss of anonymity.
Charis –
Thank you for allowing my comments here and thank you for answering my question/s
*I guess I just don’t understand what a “Radical Pro-Abort Feminist” is (never having even heard of one, let alone known one) and the ‘radical’ qualifier, instead of making it better, is extremely offensive to ME personally for reasons I will explain shortly.
*You got the idea that feminists support abortion from the reaction you got at NLQ for your pro-life stance? I’d say that’s taking a really, really tiny group of women and projecting onto them, broad brush style, the title Feminist – I think (nay, I know) that for every single ‘feminist’ there is a different definition of Feminism; you have your “biblical” feminism and I have my Radical Feminism a la Andrea Dworkin – “Radical” here meaning *a basic principle; foundation*, not *wild-eyed terrorist bomber*.
*If by NOW you refer to the National Organization of Women (about which this feminist is somewhat ambivalent) then I say: if you had taken a moment to do your own homework you would have found that that assertion is simply not true. As for me, one of the basic principles of Rad-Fem is not only NOT to support porn/prostitution/sex trafficking (pornstitution, if you will) but to go so far as to be actively ANTI-porn because of the soul-killing harm it causes women and children.
*If it wasn’t the QFDs you feel attacked you then my reading comprehension skills must have disappeared overnight – I’m confused – if it wasn’t the daughters, then who was it? Make no mistake, if I blame anybody for this dust up it’s the patriarchy.
*I’m flattered (I guess?) that you think I have a great deal of authority at NLQ but the fact of the matter is that I am the *moderator* for my little *patriarchy blaming* corner and, other than that I am a member just like anylady else. I have the same vulnerability/opportunity to being challenged in my beliefs and being ‘called out’ when I’ve made a mistake or have been too harsh – that’s a big part of the reason I’m there! Hanging out there is making ME a better human being! IOW, I have no “authority” to make the changes you suggest and moreover, I wouldn’t even if I could because NLQ is all about coming together and learning from/supporting each other (which is sometimes difficult), not splitting off into little groups where we all agree with each other and can feel safe in our certainty.
*I’m sorry that you felt/feel that your character was/is assassinated at NLQ but you must know that nolady there expects you to apologize for your pro-life stance – certainly not me. But I will say this: personally, I feel pretty angry with you because as much as I have tried to be engaging with you and your positions and have asked you sincere questions in order to ‘get to know you better’ and have spent an equal amount of time carefully and respectfully reading your comments at NLQ, you chose to lump ME in with those ladies (?) whom you feel/felt hurt by and that you chose to use (what is to me) really inflammatory language to do so insults ME.
And although I’ve been hurt by this, I have no need to go back to NLQ and talk shit about you – my brand of feminism finds such behavior morally and ethically repugnant – on the contrary, I am spending my time back at NLQ (and I’m not alone) trying to understand the DYNAMIC that created all of these bad feelings and to try to learn from it.
In Sisterhood,
Sea
Wow, I don’t know what to say…
ok, I’ll start here,
Vickie, thank you, I have actually, been Blessed by You and don’t know if you know it but I’m the one that kind of never knows What to say on Your forum=blog and have said the wrong things, several times, got the bad Karma but LOL, you know Vickie God has Used that bad Karma so much to teach me So much…about myself, about the Negative internalizations, that I still struggle with Vickie in projecting onto so many, often without my doing it deliberate or Intentional,
but Vickie I have been where you are at, oh I have, I have been where Jemand is at and so many–but on a Much deeper level of Hatred and hurt, but oh, murderous hatred Vickie,
you see for me it wasn’t just the homelessness or abuse by men or the rape or the streets or my losing my daughter, it was years of horrid abuse [my brother too] from my mother, who was sick, you know, she Did love us, but she was sick,
there was sexual abuse [on my blog I do have links for women survivors of sexual abuse by women, it Does happen, a lot, but even in the psychiatric field here, Other than Canada and Australia, there still is this like denial and not too much on how to heal in those dynamics] and anyway, the psychological abuse which was even unto Adult hood–well, it made my mind sick and my brother is also just as sick–but you know Jesus came to heal the sick, not the whole…
for years Vickie I just lived [chose] sin and rebellion and by sin I mean hate, even violence Vickie…I grew up being beaten into submission so even when I tried to Be submissive for Christ, and I was…but not in a healthy way, [in my early twenties] that Seed was germinated you know, it grew, I got wrapped up in so much–a hater yet a victim of hate too, oppressed but also oppressing, maybe not in the same way of level of power but within the heart–it would seep out,
just that I had justified it, it works like that–got involved with some groups that thrive on logic but the motivator is also hate–nihilism, was Really nihilist and Vickie I still struggle with this, I do, so My experience, though in so many ways, Similar to yours and many on the QF forum–
are so very opposite too, like I wasn’t the ‘good girl’ you know who Did obey everything God commanded [as the religious teach] but I did, submit to abuse, in a BDSM way, does that make sense?
So for Years [like about twenty] I go through all this self-destruction and finally, came to an end of myself, so I thought, [lol funny how I see this looking back] and God reached me Vickie, He did–I was at that time, working with several fighting for women’s rights in Islam, on the Political side, there is of course as you probably know the right wing elements there, I did NOT belong to them–but there is an alliance, now for me, due to my being part of the far left I couldn’t embrace that whole ideology and so while I stood in agreement on many things my advocacy for radical feminism and leftism would leave me in some awkward predicaments and well, I wasn’t embraced lets say, for my opposition to the ideologies and misogyny [the hypocrisy, you know the oh they abuse their women but women have equality here but hey hey lets plaster naked pics and compartmentalize women into sex parts, or slam the poor and well so there was that conflict there] so that whole way of advocacy I had to separate from too so I got to a place I didn’t fit anywhere, went alone in advocacy for a while but Vickie the damage was done on So many levels,
like, how you know a Prism, but a Prism that is all different shades of dark, rather than crystal clear. Anyway, there was a woman, horribly gang raped in Europe, by a gang of Political Islamists and I remember reading about her and seeing her face, it was just horrible–and this voice, I’ll never forget it Vickie, said,
‘that is what my face looked like when they beat me’
and it was Jesus.
So, long story short–I went to God with, ok ARE you a Misogynist and with that hard heart and challenge…and the first thing I read Vickie in the Bible [it had been Years since I even picked one up] was the story of the concubine and I threw that Bible across the room [two years ago] and the battle was on…God said, Go back and read that Again,
and I did, and I did, and then I saw things…things that ARE not taught in church or religion…Immediately that ‘religious spirit’ said, oh that is just all those ‘goddess beliefs’ you got into and so forth–but I pressed on, and I kept Seeing things, in the Bible I never saw before and it became like an obsession and I started studying Ancient Mesopotamia and that entire culture, laws [outside of Judaic] and I already had a lot of gender studies so, pieces started coming together,
needless to say though Vickie a lot of what I was seeing wasn’t and still isn’t accepted by the majority of churchianity, what I call it now, and the Doubts, oh my gosh the Doubts—the oh this is the devil and this is new age and blah blah blah…
and the battle was back and forth and then, Then, one day, I guess I pushed God to much, you know, provoke, and I said to Him [I had read the book of Enoch too so that was like a conflict] are you like this alien god who created us and we are like a lab experiment and well, yea Vickie I was like really Pushing…
and then, later that night, the memory of someone I had really hurt [oh I threw up the child abuse thing to God too but He also showed me how I failed my oldest daughter, got involved with an ex con, he's back in Prison now, horribly violent, long story] but anyway…the memory came to me and Vickie I was like really mean and hateful to this man…he was Gay, and I was just horrid in my Ignorant religious days when I was young and Thought I was saved…it was a brief period in my life, about a year before I went the other direction but I grew up with religion and abuse so I knew enough, of the Religion you know, anyway, this young man died…a year later, after my hateful words to him,
and so all these Other things came to me too–hateful words I said to cut people and then this fear, Vickie this FEAR that I have never felt and it was like this blanket of darkness, that you could Feel, I was in the bathroom and praying, and like every demon from hell was there–and I knew, Vickie I knew, it wasn’t God, it wasn’t that HE was bad,
it wasn’t doing good things and or not and doing bad things and Heaven and Hell–but a place of Being–a nature, like, it’s hard to describe but I knew…that this went beyond anything I ever heard of in religion. This is So hard for me to put into words but well I thought, this is it, I went over that line and am on my way to Hell, and I knew it, I so knew it but it wasn’t religion Vickie, it was what I was, Inside, that was Hell,
and for weeks I just, it was awful…and so at this time I had spent and been spending a lot of time outdoors, just sitting quiet and observing nature and Learning so much–things I took for granted, never noticed before, little things that wouldn’t mean anything but it was like I was seeing things that were Spiritual, but not in a Religious way. And the getting out of that darkness in myself into the light, was beginning, it would take a lot of time and Vickie I am still on that journey,
God used a Buddhist to reach me, an older woman who has strong faith but never went to church much, she is like one of my best friends, a really tough Woman, in her 70s who raised six kids on her own, with no support on a farm–very much like QF, and so independent and talk about miracles, she has seen them–He reached me through radical feminists and the women here, through the rebellion of my daughter and well, everything BUT religion and church, I did go to church for a little while but could not embrace it and the well, it wasn’t for me, to me it was death–this is so hard to explain,
this wasn’t easy, even many egals rejected things I would say–and Religion, you know the ‘this has to be That way and This way’ and that was so much in my Mind Vickie and it was like I was split into twenty different personalities at time, there was time I thought, I was really going Crazy,
seriously crazy, and I still had that nature in me, that Self Righteous nature and not just religious, and lashing out all over the place Including on your board, the QF board, hell I don’t think I knew how to describe or explain because like a tumble weed through my life I’ve been tossed and in so many different things always Searching,
being touched by evil yet hiding so much in myself,
it took me getting Kicked off So many Christian places, or my getting angry at things that I knew in my gut were wrong, to get to a place where I finally just got to being me…Dark and all, I mean all of it…
and then it happened…I was reading about Paul, about suffering, his being beat with rods and shipwrecked and I said to God, you know, you are sick, like an abusive husband, just Sick [I had been already accustomed to being honest and real with God because well I had nothing to lose, knew what I was inside, what I even Liked, good and bad] and there was no hiding…He had dealt with that already, about how He wants us NOT to hide, religion Hides—behind that hedge trying to cover up their nakedness because they fear the wrath of God and God isn’t even wrathful…He said to Adam and Eve, WHO told you, you were naked?
Anyway…so I’m telling God yea you’re sick and oh my gosh this is so like BDSM no wonder I’m attracted to you because the abuse in my childhood and life and the relationship with the ex con and well, dark, and so I’m rocking out to a lot of Goth [I love Goth] and just really in this dark place and Enjoying it, you know…just like ok Pushing and saying OK Jesus well who ARE you really and this whole BDSM and Ego thing you got going here…
and I told Him yea [religious folks here ain't gonna like this too much] but I told Him yea ok so this is this whole Power trip thing you got going…and why I so desire it right, in a real intimate way…why I always desired the revolutionarias and the bad boys and the sex and though I hated it I was that inside…
and He said, showed me in detail the Cross and the blood and the gore and so we get into the whole Sacrifice thing…and then,
Boom, a light goes off–He said to me, Yea, this is what I did for YOU, for the World, this BDSM thing, this Sacrifice…but I did for you First–I laid my body down for you First, in that BDSM way and I saw it Vickie, and then He said…
because the ONLY way I could Reach YOU and the Rest was to GET on YOUR LEVEL, of what is inside of YOU and to Reach you THERE, on YOUR LEVEL, not what I desired but what YOU desired because that IS that fallen nature–that Twisted love that is always though good tainted with the Evil and the Death…that only knows darkness and so the vampire human soul craves that blood and that surrender but the Difference is…
Satan offers that to you and then eats and devours you, through all sorts of ways INCLUDING RELIGION, but I, I bring you after I connect-join with you when YOU go there, to that place, to meet ME on that Cross, in My body, my flesh, my blood…and I reach you and take you and bring you OUT of it…into LIFE,
LIFE beyond good and evil, LIFE that is LOVE, the power is LOVE, yes Jane that BDSM is LOVE, on an intimate level that is raw, to the core—that reaches beyond your spirit and soul and touches you but I don’t Leave you there…nor do I ask you to remain there, but I reach to you close, so close and I take off those chains the enemy has bound you with with my pierced wrists and feet, I take off that dark clamp of lies and misogyny and fear that the enemy has bound you with that has kept you from my love, I touch your face with my bloody face that has so many times turned from me in anger thinking and believing I was the one who blindfolded you and struck you taunting you, and I reached into your side with my hand and took yours and touched my pierced side that bled water and blood so you could feel how many times I so wanted to wrap you up but your heart was in shredded fragments,
I wanted to show you how you can walk With me and In me and not under me like some dog…the Woman I created you to Be, not a dog to man or to gods or to demons but My creation, in MY image…MINE…that was stolen from me with a clever lie and deception…to be ‘gods’ when you had THE GOD, you in MY image, and then He turned and showed me His back with the bleeding ripped skin and said all the times I turned my back on Him and crawled into my self and into my pain because I thought He was beating me down…because I thought of Him as my Abuser, My Punisher, My horrible Lord who demanded my allegiance…and then
He showed me how much He hated all the lies and garbage that Sin had caused me to think about Him and religion and that thinking I had to be GOOD to be loved by Him…why that tree, evil, how it Kills, Separates from Him…He knows and He knew then…Genesis, they know Good and Evil like US, the Lord said,
but without the Tree of LIFE—that LIFE that bursts forth through the Womb, Womb of Woman, Womb of Earth, Womb of God…and all the hell and death cannot keep God’s Womb of LIFE down,
it will Never, keep LOVE down…intimate Love that is so powerful that it is orgasmic there is no other way to describe it, but it is also Real and Truth…no hiding…no pretense, no mask, no pretending,
so naked there I stood and all the desires to do good and desires to yes, to do evil, the times that fruit tasted oh so good…and Jesus there naked and bloody and tasted death but never sinned…looked into me and my soul and said,
I
Love
You.
And then I knew….I cannot put this into words but I knew and all the religion and ‘man’s doctrines’ just like broken glass crumbled and the philosophies and the misogynist lies and garbage and the patriarchy and the hierarchies and all the systems just blasted into millions of pieces and I just knew…
no more would I have to fear evil or try to kill this evil presence in me or try to do good or all the time war, war with myself and war with others and war with God, the evil would always be there…in this tree bark body…dark, gray, but the sap, the sap of life…Jesus, touching me, in that dark place, would grow and bear LIFE…His Love, intimate Love,
God
and then He took my face and said, come on, time to leave this place and walk up…walk in Me, learn in Me, learn what Love is, what Freedom is, what it was always supposed to be…like in the Garden, where I touched your face in the wind and soaked your body in the water and under the sun and so often tried to show you but you wouldn’t see because you were wrapped up in Rules and Dogma and Rebellion and Fear and believing all the lies of the enemy and the lies of Men and of your parent…
that thing that crawls in you, that rises up…that wants to drag you to the pit to be devoured does not have the Power to do that anymore Unless I want it or let it…That BDSM Jane,
because it was the ONLY way, you would Ever really see, from the depth of what you are and where you are at…Who I AM.
And we walked up through this tunnel of darkness He and I and while it was still Dark His eyes, a light…burned into my soul..my heart, and HE smiled…this is what Victory feels like and Resurrection…and I knew the demons and the vampires were all foaming at the mouth because no matter What I had done or was…it was all under His blood–of no doing of my own, no work of my own, no effort or striving of my own..HE saved me, and still is,
He brought me out of Egypt, that spiritual Egypt of laws and religions and gender roles and ideals and all that garbage…
freedom.
OH the freedom to dance in the sun and laugh, to really laugh, to learn to let Others be free…to see how He loves them too, the Gospel of Reconciliation,
I read that later, now I get it.
OH I so get it…we will be like Angels He said…the sons of God, sons meaning sons and daughters…but it is So much more than that, oh my gosh So much more…Satan is Such a LIAR,
I wish I could put that in big bold tall letters here, he is such a LIAR
and So much to WOMEN,
oh my to Women So many LIES
Woman I do NOT CONDEMN THEE JESUS SAID
WOMAN I DO NOT CONDEMN THEE
it is So much more than the ‘adultery’ oh if Only WOMEN could see…
no Wonder the Patriarchs want to take that scripture OUT of the King James, no wonder Satan wants that OUT…
Why did God put enmity between the serpent and WOMAN?
To save Humanity, to save Womankind…THE WOMB OF LIFE–not by Having children, though that IS a part of…to be Saved in Childbearing….
through the Generations, little by little the Darkness will be Illuminated by LIGHT,
LET THERE BE LIGHT…
in LIGHT COMES FREEDOM
dark ages, Enlightment ages,
Paul SAW it, they All did, they knew Spiritual, they were so more aware of the Spiritual, with the manifestations of in the temple sacrifices oh so more than We with our blocking the mirror image of the dimensions with our concrete and knowledge that hides…the material that hides the Spiritual even within matter,
but God still is there and it’s so around us, if we just see…oh it is,
but it’s discerning between the Truth and the Lies, so many Lies…
Vickie you are in the place God has brought you and He will show you, it took me getting Away from religion, churchianity, to get to a place to meet Him, it isn’t just QF it is through the development, of the human made ‘god’ image…
son of man, son of perdition…
son of man, God and woman,
son of perdition, not man, son of perdition, will be revealed, REVEALED, by light…in the Temple,
what Temple?
religion?
false Christ…
oh yea…oh Yea., where better than RELIGION=CHURCHIANITY,
the Temple.
having a Form of Godliness but denying the POWER thereof, what is that POWER,
Jesus and Jesus Crucified, LOVE, in that bdsm way…not that WE are to be the Sacrifice to ‘be devoured and consumed’ but HE did…to give us LIFE, LIFE ABUNDANT,
Paul’s sacrifice was LOVE—
but it Is a fine Line Vickie and that is why it can be so Easily twisted by Satan to devour and destroy and to lie to us, we so want to be Loved by God and NOT be rejected that Other lie, the FEAR…perfect LOVE CASTETH OUT ALL FEAR,
Satan lies, oh he lies through Religion and Law…to keep us bound in the dark…in those chains, having dominion over us and cramming it down our throats, submit, submit, the demons laugh…
they twist EVERYTHING,
but light, it is there. It is there, the LIE about Religion Vickie, it’s that ‘leaf’ that Adam and Eve and we all use, to hide, our nakedness, we fear God…the serpent lies to us and says once the fruit is germinated God wants you to do this and God hates you and God will destroy you and God this God that…oh You did this you ate this fruit and you liked it and you will pay now…
and so they hide, in fear they hide…oh What to do, What to do…Religion knows the Gospel so they put on the false garment, that garment to go into the wedding,
[I had a dream about this Vickie when I first began this journey, where I stole this dress after running from these men who were trying to kill me and me and a lot of women, broke into this store, in another time frame, like the 50s I think and they took off when I couldn't fit this one dress on so I tried on another and they left and I was there--the first dress was Scarlet, in this store window and like Victorian times and I remember looking at it but it was out of date so I chose this blue number, from like the 59s but it didn't fit...so I chose another, anyway the women left and I went out side, this old woman was at a picnic table and this man, dark man was driving up and I knew he was the owner of the store and I was terrified because I had on this stolen dress and I told the lady hurry, I got to take this dress off and get it back into the store and before he sees so I won't get caught and I see him in this big car and he looks at me and I am so busted and I jump into this other car and strip and I tell this woman, I will just put this dress into the store and make up a LIE]
I woke up…I prayed, What does that mean and I for one year said God I do NOT want to lie…what does that mean…
anyway, that wedding garment, the man at the wedding and the Father of the Bridegroom says where did you get that garment? Who invited you? And that man was thrown out–
I never got that till the other day–that garment that man had on Vickie was RELIGION,
WE DON’T HAVE GARMENTS….
we are butt ass naked in our selves, our true selves, sin and all, HE covers us,
with HIMSELF…IN HIS BLOOD, IN HIS SWEAT, IN HIS TEARS…HE COVERS US…A GIFT, HIS SELF.
Adam and Eve come out naked and oh the Devil made me do it [oh God I so wanted to taste that fruit you see I so wanted to be like the gods [angels] and oh God I so craved it and it tasted sooooo good] and Adam oh She made me do it God it’s YOUR FAULT THIS WOMAN YOU GAVE ME who I can’t keep my hands off and it’s HER [oh God I so wanted it too and I so loved her and wanted to be god too because if she was she might not want me and maybe I just want to be a god too and I'm afraid but if She don't die in front of me well ok then give me that fruit and oh my it is soooo goood and I like it but oh, wait, oh my gosh I am naked, so is she, oh my, God said, God said, do NOT, do NOT]
the PUNISHMENT HAD ALREADY BEGUN…THE SENTENCE HAD ALREADY BEGUN…man would not Love but Rule and woman would not desire God but man and sorrow and pain and thorns and bitterness….the death was Already there,
it was there the minute they FEARED getting Caught and God seeing them NAKED
but after God told them the Sentence–and the Redemption,
He took an animal and He covered them…with His love knowing one day, He would cover them, with HIMSELF.
But they were dark and blind and would now have to through the generations See, that no amount of goodness, could ever restore them…
only God, could do that.
and so yea, it took, Him, in a BDSM way, to Reach us…to reach us, on that level of who we are–
all the religion in the world will NEVER COVER OUR NAKEDNESS
and God did NOT condemn, man OR WOMAN
He covered in blood—
in Love.
OH, Vickie, if people, if women, could Only see…but the mind oh the mind…in so many ways even now I still battle,
but more and more I see, little here, little there…but it’s always now, going Back to the Cross, when I get lost in the way, which is daily,
and laying down with Jesus and looking and hearing Him…
and then I feel the life again,
in me, in me WOMAN, FREE, RESTORED, LOVED, BELOVED
and NO man, NO PATRIARCH, NO MISOGYNIST PREACHER, NO IDEAL WILL PLUCK ME OUT OF HIS HAND…NO DEMON NO ANGEL NO CRISIS NO PAIN NO SCORPION NO LEGALISM
WILL PLUCK ME OUT OF HIS HAND NOR SEPARATE ME OR OTHERS FROM HIS LOVE
OR YOU VICKIE, NOR YOU…
no matter what Vickie, HE has you, in HIS hand…I know it, I just know it.
And those wounds HE is going to Heal and He is going to give you His Honey and Freedom…to dance, to sing, to be so alive in Him and EMPOWERED, WOMAN
the way you were Always, meant to be.
I so wanted to share, so much on the blog [QF] but I do not have the Wisdom Vickie to, I don’t know how…
but one thing, I will say [I know this is So long, sorry],
just this morning, been thinking about this rod crap child abuse these people preach [you know they are in the dark too, Satan uses people, he does] but anyway….
on another forum I spoke about what the rod really means, but God confirmed something else to me this Morning…oh like, My Gosh,
in Exodus, Moses, the Rod…what that Rod really means and it is NOT what so many think,
in the desert, after sin, the desert of sin [same dialectic that works in NT with us btw], they had no water…
God told Moses, to HIT that rock, with the Rod, and Water gushed out [water is life],
numerous times God said, hit something with that Rod,
funny thing is though, God didn’t HIT the People with that Rod, but the ROCK…and water gushed out…
God didn’t hit the People,
the rod, was used to hit and beat/into submission by the gods of Pharaoh, the empirial gods of Rome the ‘gods’ of this WORLD,
THEY USE THE ROD, TO BEAT US INTO SUBMISSION…TO WHIP US CRUELLY…
not God…God was Showing Israel, the Difference between HIM and the ‘gods’,
oh, oh, when I saw that, Oh my gosh, I am more and more falling Madly in Love with Him…
I mean…like, WOW…
religion and religious internalizations blinded me for So many years, so many,
no more.
That is why, Paul could be beaten with rods, but sing with Joy, because HE knew, who God really was, we don’t see this because indoctrination of Religion, by the ‘gods’ has Blinded us,
but the son of perdition, will be Revealed…
to those, who truly want to find Him, the Truth, Way, Life…faith, substance, of things HOPED FOR,
if we HOPE FOR LOVE
FREEDOM
WE WILL
FIND IT.
I did.
Love, no condemnation Vickie, Jesus said, NEITHER DO I CONDEMN THEE
WOMAN…
for being WOMAN…those patriarchs, that tell us we are serpent seed and all that Satanic lying filth
are the Same patriarchs [religion] that
rejected Christ, they HATED HIM..THEY HATED GOD…
the gods of this world
the princes of this world would have NEVER CRUCIFIED JESUS IF THEY HAD KNOWN
Paul said….
salve for the eyes that we may see Jesus, salve for the eyes…
Love,
Jane
I sort of promised Jesus I wouldn’t share this, because it was so intimate…I did though, I wanted to, I don’t know, you just want everyone to know I guess,
Love does that, I part want to so selfishly just indulge in this with Him and In Him but at the same time, I don’t think He shows me these things Just for me,
no, no He doesn’t…it’s just a seed–God increaseth, I don’t have all the answers, hardly, I don’t know if God reaches everyone the same way…for me, this is how He relates to me,
it is Goth kind of it Is dark, dark night of the soul…it’s not about embracing sin though, but there is a difference, between being delivered from the Power of Sin [that crouches at the door to master us] in that flesh [not body, but that nature of death, that feasts and devours its own self even--slow hate poison] and then trying to be righteous and good in our own strength by rules and CONFORMITY,
oh, that’s another thing, that whole conformity garbage…
only to help others see, do we conform by free will–OUT OF LOVE, not obligation and surely not due to GENDER bondage…
to not be a stumbling block, but Free at the same time,
I can listen to goth or rock and be free, for others this may not be the case, we are Different individuals and that’s the neat thing about God…He is not a ‘box’, He is SOOOOO much Bigger than that,
His creation and the Diversity, just the Plant life alone–Eternity it would take an Eternity to see the Awesomeness of God,
God who is NOT man, God who to me has shown me lover, mother, father, sister, friend, brother, teacher, warrior protector, instructor, Spirit…
God my God and my Goddess
my Everything…
my King but funny thing is, He reminded me this yesterday, when I was heavy into Anarchist [anarcho-communism] I remembered reading something about Kings,
about how Isreal Demanded a King because all the other tribes had a King and God didn’t want to give them a King, He said,
a King will rule you and militaries and etc., but Israel said, we don’t Care we wanna King…
and King they got.
Free Will,
Love, but Love respects our Free Will,
because LOVE IS FREEDOM–
FREEDOM, NOT BONDAGE, NOT PRISON, NOT CHAINS…
the Perfect Law of Liberty, I never got that either,
God isn’t About BDSM and Power and Abuse and Gender Abuse and Sexism and Misogyny and Child Abuse and all that other, RELIGION IS THOUGH…oh Hell yea Religion and Hierarchy is All about that–
we live sadly for now IN that world, religious or secular that is All about Power and Abuse and the ROD of beating and hate
and bondage and chains…
we wanna King God, we wanna King God
that nature–
and the god of this world the Minute we begin to see says, LOOK, see how that GOD is, how He wants to Rule you and Crush you [though we don't see that the god of this world is the One standing there with the Rod of Hate and Fangs in his hand, oh no, the gods who would not accept that God made us, in His image...the gods who rebelled against Heaven]
so God gets the blame. The Light has come into the world, not to Condemn the world…but that the world might be saved,
to those who come to the light,
those who don’t lest their evil deeds be shown [oh that nakedness] because maybe some Prefer it and maybe Religion, oh is a good way to hide behind…[the enemy knows how to use his workers to put on the light, Paul said, faux Christ]
those who come to the Light, are saved, by what?
By the work WROUGHT IN GOD….
in Who?
In God, not us…in God….
He covers us—He delivers, He sets us on the Rock, He frees us, He teaches us, He transforms us—
LOVE.
and you are right Vickie, that Love means,
no more crappy pizza.
Love,
Jane
You’re pretty sick and pathetic, thinking you have any possessiveness over your daughter’s reproductive bodies. Why dont you chain them in the basement?
Sarah,
Your comment is a perfect example of the sort of response a QF mother gets for posting on NLQ in defense of a conceived but unborn grandchild, who is quite a separate and distinct individual from my daughter and daughter-in-law. I love them BOTH!
Pity your family cannot tolerate transparent discussion about heartfelt issues like this. I am grateful that my own daughter and daughter in law did not call me names like you have, and that they love and respect me even though we disagree about it.
I find comfort that any of their children, my grandchildren who have been lost to this life will meet us in heaven.
in closure, now I am learning [slow] that law is the Power of this sin, inside…
this dark force that at times feels it IS all of me, I always thought on the ‘do not sin walk in Spirit’ but that force was getting Stronger,
so, ok like fine I dump this cuzz I am getting Worse, guilt guilt guilt how to be free from all that guilt and Fear–
the law is the Power and Strength of sin,
what the hell does that Mean exactly?
Just OT law? Or something more, and I am seeing its something More,
than just OT law. It has something to do with the negative & positive, I’ve seen/thought about this in physics, you know,
two negatives make a positive, a negative and positive make a positive but two Positives make a Negative,
like, How does that work,
or better,
the division of cells, be they plant, animal, human, the ‘order’ in which they divide then join then divide then make families but it’s really Cool, if you look at it [and then throw in the totally out there gender in Science, male seahorses giving birth/being pregnant, the Kimono dragon can [the she] birth by herSelf, with no male mate–Plants like the Pomengranite {sic} that can Self-Propagate [and one that is in Bible a lot] yet Apple trees need both genders,
like, there Is no CONSISTENCY in nature–not in this BOX way…
yet, animals, like our cats [we have several] their white is like this Pure Stark white that never gets dull and it’s the ONLY coat they have, it sheds but that is it…they are if you don’t interfere [inhuman way] just amazing to watch…the males will stay with the young [we've had some kittens, before, not breeders just had some kittens years ago, and I watched them, Ragamuffin cats] anyway, they all love and preen each other, the males Know their young, really interesting to observe the animal kingdom,
birds same way, I do some work in parrot rescue [very small scale and in parrot advocacy] and in the parrot world the Females are the Matriarchs…some are bonded for life but Doves now [cousins of the parrots], including the mourning dove/white dove [symbol of Holy Spirit] can bond female to female for live–and they won’t separate even WITH males, I know, we have six of them…
totally Contrary to Religious Definitions of God and Order, referring to Order of things here,
but there is a Love, within animal kingdom–though yes, they do eat one another [funny some things in Isaiah about that won't be in the new heaven & earth] but things that make you go
hmmmmmmmm
lol and I won’t even begin to talk here about the ‘faces’ one can see in space images [no kidding, they are There, not just one photo from Nasa either] but they are there,
Weird things, you know, but Fascinating, I mean, like, well how can one Not be curious?????
June bugs and the light they give off yet how moths are attracted to light, you know as Children, we have these imaginations and we Believe,
it’s not until we get cynical in adulthood with the pains [and this can happen early in childhood, it did for me] and we begin to lose that magic, you know
but Jesus said, unless you become like a little child…
so, yea, now I see things different and more and more this is becoming so–in a kind of Narnia way [I LOVE Narnia, Lewis and Tolkien], but I hate the way religion will get in there and Kill the message,
kill the imagination with doctrine, kill the innocence and love and joy
no wonder legalism thrives the way it does, and then, it’s hate from there.
Hate and self-hate,
Vickie you mentioned something on your blog/forum, several times about self-abnegation,
God has used that So much to show me So much, it isn’t just what we learn in patriarchal religions but we can internalize and learn self-abnegation/self destruction in secular things too,
in religion though, it’s sinister because it’s hidden under this faux gospel of Love, that really isn’t Love,
it’s Fear. FEAR,
fear and then we are dutiful and rigid and always Self Policing, that self-monitoring…women learn this even in secular due to patriarchy and social mores, those constructs that go Deep,
anyway I was like drinking the water of self abnegation and one can do this in rebellion too [some other lies in that as well] and by rebellion I mean, for me it was in the face Hey God I will do this, see…didn’t Start out that way, no, but the more angry the more I would get that way,
I still Have those moments, esp when triggered,
you know Vickie we don’t Jump into this total freedom overnight, it takes wading through so much, sometimes we can have invisible chains, and well, your work, with the Take Heart, I really believe God is going to use that to Free women,
God is moving Vickie, God as in God is Love, is moving, I saw this on Women’s Space [the Margins, I Love Heart, have had my disagreements with her but oh I was set free from So much there]
and within other nations, something IS happening and we’re all a thread/part of it, but it doesn’t happen overnight–and we All come to this quilt, you know, with different experiences and pain and beliefs and lens,
somewhere we meet, then branch off then meet again but it’s the same Threads and one day,
that quilt, will put together and then it will make sense. But you know in making a quilt, sometimes threads are pulled, pieces are ripped out, started over again, sometimes pieces tear—there is splits,
but the quilt is Far from finished yet. And it may not finish in our time here, you know,
there is I really believe, a Spiritual restoration of women–at the same time there is a hate to women that is growing worldwide, AS well as to the planet and to the animal world, Eco feminists see this, a lot,
I concur with them, there Is something going on, that we are all connected too–whether or not all women will be a part of that quilt I do not know, though they may all benefit from or not, I do not know,
but in death there is life–decay there is life, the Rad Fems [in goddess beliefs] use to say this and I hated it, I thought, oh resigning but I didn’t ‘get’ it then…and it seems the wheel, tends to go round and round and always back to that point [revolution theory and counter-revolution] but like in Any other emancipation struggle,
take African Americans, I study the writings from the female authors there, sometimes not as much as I would like but there it seems, that through the whole circle of time there tends to be those, in the quilt [like there is a big quilt then a quilt within a quilt kind of] that through it all, find it, they find Love, they find the Love to Rise Above it All into Freedom,
there is a good book, “My First White Friend” that I can’t recall the author but oh, really a good book and I gave it to my daughter [who is Native Indian and we have dealt with racism] and well, yea,
a good book, I would suggest any struggling with healing/forgiveness/without getting into the whole denial trap, read it–
I still cry Vickie and I still have the dark moments, ask anyone here, I still doubt, but those times are getting less–meaning, not that they AREN’T as painful and just this Plunge into the abyss but I am seeing more through revelation, not religion, hearing more–something about Life, from a soul, Vickie that had none…it had been somewhat stamped to death,
I’m talking at the point of suicide seemed The only option–my kid’s saved me there, were The reason, many times I didn’t,
but it got to where That wasn’t enough either–talk about scary, those struggles are Still there, it ain’t no utopia nor this Weee I”m in Disney Land Christianity and the pat answers oh so work,
NOT
not even..in fact, they tended to give more Death, and it’s so easy to Get back into, that fine line–relationship and Religion, relationship ‘bordered’ and ‘defined’ by Religion,
religion kills, and is not just external but the product of our own thinking too–the colonized mind, so to speak,
human logic–can do that,
the Minute I begin to Reason, love dies, imagination dies, hope dies, I”m back to the law and sin struggle and the plunge begins…I see others like that, comparisons and nit picking and God that frickin toxic crap…starts to pull–
for me Vickie, I had to and I really believe I will Remain, detached from Religion, structure, I just can’t go back–so I do so relate to where you are at, I do,
oh I do…but I do believe,
LOL, God works in strange ways and that we find who God really is, real Faith, not in the ‘ideal’ or the ‘mental images’ but when we get to the place,
where there is nothing and we have Nothing, absolutely nothing to draw from WITHIN OURSELVES, no well, that well has long run dry and there is no vision, even if we Try to make there be one…
and then, out of the blue, in HIS timing and in His way,
He just does it–for me, not just once, I didn’t embrace it for TWENTY YEARS VICKY,
twenty something years…
but He does do it.
Now I know, what Paul meant, I count it All but dung–for Christ,
we don’t ever get there till we get to the End of it all, the East, where there is a lot of suffering [not willing putting in to conform to doctrine, etc/religion] but suffering that they have no choice in, systems, famines, etc.,
they Know, I think–where we, in the West, haven’t Been to that place, where it’s life or death, literally…on a huge scale–why there IS no real Love or real Humility or real Compassion, I’m talking Love that doesn’t CARE if one isn’t perfect but just wants the well being of that person all the way to the core–
like you love your children, That type of real Love…
it takes, among people, that foundation to be shook and Ripped out from under us, all that faux religion and garbage–to get us, to see the true Face of God, metaphorically you know—
I had faith, for years, in an Ideal–in my mind,
faith from other’s words, from a book [Bible], from religion and reasoning,
it didn’t hold up to squat…I even Hated God, I really did…because I never really Knew God,
I knew Religion.
And not just Christianity but Judaism and Islam too–and communism [another religion in it's own right]
it’s fruit IS death…horrible slow rotting death, self abnegation, critical about all things, everything impure, everyone an enemy or some and self hate,
internalized misogyny,
yea, spit it out. The best thing that could happen to you and all the women that God will bring your way, and He will, is to spit it all out…start from Zero, take it day at a time, dont’ force it, you can’t Anyway,
I know, He will do it. I just know it…when, I can’t say, How, have no idea…
for who, not a clue,
but I know, if there is Love, a hope for Love and Freedom, that is Exactly, where HE can be found, and He is there…
and Vicky I am finding, no matter how dark, that Life, is beautiful, small as it is for me right now, it’s just blooming from a seed place, a tiny seedling sprouting, but oh,
it’s So nice, to
Breathe.
Love,
Jane
Sarah,
uh, isn’t that kind of uncalled for, attacking the Person rather than the ‘issue’?
I am pro-Reproductive Rights but that is kind of over the line a bit, don’t you think? It’s no different really, of a pro-lifer calling a woman who has had an abortion, let say, due to rape, as a ‘child murderer’,
same thing…attacking the person. While I know where you are coming from–in that abortion, as a very huge political Tool [either anti-or for] over women’s Very real lives,
the personal is political and vice versa, the power hegemony that decides over the most intimate space of women’s Lives IN their Lives, and that, yes, IS infuriating,
to project that onto anyone’s personal ‘convictions’ is Wrong. That isn’t autonomy or freedom either,
the thing is Sarah internalizations run deep, esp Guilt, but also, being free/and in that deconstructing from that Guilt, i.e. social constructs particularly on gender–can also be Just as Dogmatic, Cruel and Merciless [the other side of that coin],
while Yes Sarah there ARE women out there who are Dead set on imprisoning us all [and there are some good analysis as to Why this happens, Mary Daly I believe had some of the better analysis on this], Misery loves Misery,
for example, how can women, oppressed in horrid ways, turn and monitor and oppress other women, like in Iran, OK and push for Sharia even though their lives are a Living hell because of? Well, it’s what is called ADAPTATION, we adapt,
some more so than others and in that Adaptation or assimilation, when the Only empowerment [or freedom from guilt or bondage or conviction or whatever it may be] Comes ONLY FROM THE TURNING THAT OPPRESSION ONTO ANOTHER to lesson one’s own chains,
then it’s understandable, and why Patriarchy is such a B***tch to deconstruct, on many levels [race, class, hierarchy, even marital status, age, you name it, region],
I don’t believe whatsoever that is Charis’s intent, controlling her daughters, convictions [and we all have them, religious or otherwise] especially when we love our daughters, we can transfer them over for various reasons, They may be right, they may NOT be,
this is why, for example, FGMS are so hard to undo in Africa/Middle East because it’s not that Men are forcing this, it’s Mother’s who pass this down, do we Condemn them?
No, no, that won’t change anything and that is where the accusations of Paternalism and Western Imperialism [within feminism mind you] DO so much to divide,
FGMs there is So much like the Abortion issue here, on many levels. The joys of patriarchy, deconstruction, and even there, in deconstruction there Is that place where there is Such a deconstruct IT becomes Misogynist in it’s own right.
Does that make sense, what I am trying to say?
It won’t get Anyone anywhere—it sure as hell won’t Free anyone, or free women from Patriarchy and in fact,
in War, what’s the bottom line,
DIVIDE AND CONQUER,
Patriarchs Love that women are at each other’s throats, literally they love it, it is what Maintains THEIR STRENGTH in the boys club of might, political, religious, you name it, right, left, central, religious, non-religious,
it unites them and that is why in 2010 Animals, have more Rights, even to Self Defense, than we
WOMEN DO, from freedom from Male Terror, Violence, Abuse, Impoverishment…
we Don’t get Anywhere, with the attacking other women–I’ve done it, I understand the rage, oh I’ve done it, Sarah…
Especially when it comes to confronting privilege and class/racism,
Within feminist ranks even.
But if we continue to divide we will kill any solidarity we have left–Then who wins?
The Autonomy struggle?
NO, the Patriarchs do and those who support that whole system of mores…
we need to learn how to Listen, to what is Behind the convictions women have–confront Yes,
but Charis, is right, I have seen ‘that type’ of attack on the boards, Because there ARE different theories within feminism [and really, many of the women within the Christian feminist movement are I think, in a lot of ways, like kind of in the second wave, similar in other ways to Rad fems [those who reject the liberal capitalist I got mine well to hell with you type of thing],
this has been exasperated by Male polemics too [oh in a big way], that get Their hands in the pot so to speak–though we may not realize it, so much, that backlash wasn’t just religious fundies,
there is a saying, another man’s trash is another man’s treasure,
I think the same can be said of women’s liberation too, one woman’s liberation can or could be another woman’s bondage/slavery,
the Problem is I think is how patriarchy, effects us all but on very different levels, double burden, triple burden, hell even quadruple burden—and not just by men but by other Women,
and where we Sit in that–how we see through Our lens.
Throw in the extreme poles working in the Political on that [where we have no gender parity still and when we do its often the sell of women/esp race/class for the machine of economy/votes, etc, the peace factor, what have you],
and then we really have a mess.
But we need to look beyond and behind, you know…the main thing that is going to thrust women into the dark ages with the Theocrats [and NOT just Christian mind you...and I do mean that] will be
the lack of Solidarity, the divisions, the cut throat,
and being that, there is right now, a real Potential for Help, with the ex-QF, and we Do need more WOMEN ONLY SPACES HERE AS WELL AS IN OTHER NATIONS—NOT JUST RELIGIOUS MIND YOU, BUT WOMEN’S SPACES,
refuges, like the Congo, that city of refuge [see V Day]
the Last thing we need, is to cut each other at the knees.
Sarah I could Understand if Charis was part of that patriarchal movement that is working to build a SYSTEM of BONDAGE, you know,
but she Isn’t, Look at the Work she is doing here, to Free Women,
oh no, She and I may NOT agree on a lot, but She is my Sister, and I will stand by her, I got her back…
and one thing I do know about her, she ain’t chaining no one, in any basement nor is she some narrow minded control freak. I’ll stand by her on this one,
you, were Way out of line.
But I do understand, that rage–been there, not condemning you, just saying,
take a step back, and look at the whole board here–
Charis has allowed me to post so much, on things that the Majority of Christian boards would Never allow and That includes many Egalitarian boards…For Women’s Rights,
so, no, if Anything, Charis is in NO way, Controlling or Pushy Whatsoever, over women, their bodies or their rights to choose…
In solidarity,
Jane
Thinking on this, to Vicky [and any others reading],
you know, it’s like this…well for one, you probably don’t need to hear all this my journey thing, you know, I think, you get enough of that already don’t you? Esp on the QF board, I think, that may have been why so many were just not receptive to where I was at, UNDERSTANDABLE,
I get it, I do…took a while but I get it…
the thing is, for those of us who have Been there, you know, at that place where we Walked away then years later, came back–we see how those who are very Hostile to Christ [I would go as far to say Prejudice, ok] are all over these places that many are at this place of questioning–esp religion and patriarchy and you know it’s not just Christianity I’ve seen it on women fighting Islamic tyranny too,
but here’s the deal…we, who have been at that place, forget, WE had to have the ROOM,
TO WALK IT OURSELVES.
Some find other beliefs, some return, some hell go back into the church and religion and well, that’s what they feel is best for them, not my thing but hey, some do…some never truly leave it, they try to Reform within, if that works for them, well, guess that’s for them.
I, personally, found faith again but I can’t go back to the confines of churchianity or religion, I tried, I just can’t, I am NOT that person anymore…
but I had to WALK IT, YOU KNOW, FOR YEARS, if Anyone had of tried to convince me during Those years [and oh, some tried] I wouldn’t receive it, in fact it just made me angrier,
and I remember that now–I simply was NOT at that place nor would be, for a very long time,
that is why, it’s the Holy Spirit, that convicts, leads, frees, not US, oh though we sure like to try, I think often we do More damage than good…
that is one reason I sort of don’t post much on the QF, I am not IN that place–not from the same way for sure and well, while I can relate on a lot of things, on a lot I can’t…so it wouldn’t and isn’t fair for me to you or the others, to get on there and say Hey look at what God showed me,
I didnt’ get that at first–I do now,
thing is, only You can walk it and the other women in similar shoes–you need that Room, you know, besides, these are things that have to come to one personal, on a level that is beyond Surface–has to be breathed and lived and felt–to Try and force it, would be false anyhow and would just crumble–at the first huge storm,
Just be free Vickie, no condemnation…while I may sense/believe God is working–
how He is, is HIS business, not mine, not anyone’s…only He knows you, your life, your heart…you know what I am saying,
He don’t need me or anyone anyway–I think we feel that we have to ‘Save’ others when really, we ain’t the ones saving nobody, hell we can’t even Save our own damn selves,
we Forget that-
so, that room of freedom to breathe and walk–it’s something, every one, has to do, on their own…
no one can do it for them.
Nor are we supposed to–but if you ever need to talk, I’m here…or on my blog [it's kind of dark because well I'm just weird, kind of like it though]
that, that I think, is what the bad karma marks, God showed me–I had to have that room, and if we Really Trust Him, like we Say we do,
in His Love,
we’ll give others, that same freedom and that same space and room,
without interfering.
Love,
Jane
Sea {here}
You are a good choice for a moderator if you really have “spent an equal amount of time carefully and respectfully reading your comments at NLQ”
I’m sorry you feel insulted by my post. That is why iI talk here and not there. When I talk much there, I always regret it. I seem to bring out the worst in people. As far as I know, I do NOT character assassinate them. I simply state my views and people are offended. That board will not be a safe place when actively QF mothers are everyone’s villain. Its happened to others too; I’ve heard from one of them.
Are you insulted because I say “everyone”? When one posts something honest and then has to wade through a half dozen posts filled with vitriol, it sure feels like EVERYONE, and its not safe.
I suggested the sub-boards in good faith. Perhaps you should check with your volunteer counselors about that. Or don’t. God’s will prevail: maybe NLQ is not a good place for women like me.
I have been unable to keep up with all the comments, but I don’t think this conversation is moving toward resolution. If anything, I feel the divide has widened. I’m OK with that, I accept it. No point in beating a dead horse. I’m closing the comments.
~~~~~~~~~~~
Vyckie,
Would you mind informing your blog contributors that quoting them with attribution is permitted by law and to be expected? musicmom seemed to take offense at being quoted which was more “icing on the cake” IYKWIM (((((((sigh)))))))))