Pastor Mark Driscoll’s counsel to the wife of an unbelieving husband:
“Driscoll told her, “1 Peter 3 says if your husband is an unbeliever to serve him with deeds of kindness,” referring to oral sex.
Nothing like turning a passage around to say the opposite of what it really says! 1 Peter 3 speaks of the “chaste behavior” of a wife winning her unbelieving husband!
This message of chastity, purity in marriage is not confined to 1 Peter. Paul also speaks of this in the famous “Titus 2″ instructions to wives. Paul also designates who is to “teach the young women” about dealing with their husbands and Mark Driscoll does not have the biblical qualifications. Check it out for yourself in Titus 2
There was a season in my marriage when he was just seething with lust (I can feel it when its LUST and I prayed that GOD would keep me CHASTE per the Titus 2 and 1 Peter 3 exhortations to WIVES) It was like I had an invisible shield all around me. God struck him impotent whenever he got anywhere near me. He could jerk off to porn but he couldn’t get an erection with me. Scared him. I guess he figured he better clean up his act or God really was going to “cut it off”. My exhortation to him regarding the porn use was to put his “isaac” on the altar and tell GOD to “cut it off” since its causing him to stumble (it’s an “isaac” cuz I seriously think he might be more upset sacrificing it on the altar than one of his children)
I don’t think a porn user needs “understanding”, nor do they need a wife conforming to the porn images they have imbibed (which are full of OS and AS). I think they need confrontation.
WIFE- you start praying that GOD will keep you CHASTE-
no more images allowed in the marriage bed!
YOU have spiritual authority!!!
USE IT!!!
Gotta put these things on the altar to be CONSUMED!
Per Titus 2, CHASTITY is to be taught to the younger {MARRIED!!!} women by the older {MARRIED!!!} women:
“chaste”- <53> exciting reverence, venerable, sacred, pure, pure from carnality, chaste, modest, pure from every fault, immaculate, clean
Older women behave as “becometh holiness” and teaching the neos (new or younger women) to be sober/self controlled and chaste. Please note, they are teaching MARRIED WOMEN!!!!!! So, married women (who are immature in their faith) will have a tendency to LACK self controlled/sober and chaste behavior.
I see in there God’s intention that the mature women teach the neos (newer, younger) to the end that their mind will be whole, sound, healed, that they will live consecrated, set apart for God, being able to perceive what is good and constructive and what is evil, that they have the charge to GUARD their home/marriage and keep themselves safe, protected, and chaste within their home and with their husbands.
HT: freedom4captives and Danni Moss
This is an absolutely excellent insight! As wives, we do have authority. We can stand on the Word and do what is right — and that doesn’t include entering into a husband’s sin. God must be first place in our lives – not second place after our husband! God never demanded us to commit idolatry in the name of submission, service, chastity, having a quiet spirit, charity, or any other Bible word.
– Danni
Going to go a tad ‘opposite’ here,
and say why.
I think, and I am going to say this VERY STRONGLY,
we had better be VERY careful, in HOW WE DEFINE WHAT
CHASTE IS?
And here is why?
When we start putting ‘confines’ on What is chaste in sex and what isn’t…[not talking about turning from porn, but getting into Dogma and Extremism],
we are doing Exactly, what misogynists do elsewhere,
what’s next?
Orgasm in women is sin too?
And that leads to what?
FGMS [female castration] and ‘fibulation….the Hatred of the female sexuality, body, etc.
I see this Charis, in women who have been hurt because of how men treat women,
there is a REAL DANGER THERE,
and lets not forget, the hell that women were Forced to endure, under the Catholicism’s demand for
CHASTITY.
When it gets to where ’sex’ is dirty, vile, etc., that all that is acceptable is
a woman lying dead like in missionary, with no feeling because that may be ‘evil’,
we are in some dangerous territory…
TWO EXTREMES,
and I will be VERY VOCAL on this because I know too many women, who live under that OTHER extreme,
and THEIR LIFE IS HELL,
physical hell as well as emotional, spiritual, etc.
I knew of women, in the South [because of that 'be chaste' puritanical dogma] who had never even experienced climax, who were suffering all sorts of illnesses, from the pent up stress AND THE ANGER, oh my gosh, the ANGER these women deal with,
is just unreal, I had a friend, for 20 something years, of marriage, never once, had a climax, but oh, her Husband sure did…she had been raised with that Chaste and sex is ‘dirty’ for women,
but if he wanted sex, even if she was asleep, he got it. She hated sex, because of it,
the other EXTREME,
and its Just as deadly to a woman’s soul as the other extreme of ‘lust and porn and rape’.
Porn is NOT about OS and AS,
its about WOMEN, ALWAYS PORTRAYED, IN THIS SUBSERVIENT WANTING TO PLEASE THE MAN NO MATTER WHAT HE DEMANDS….AS IF THAT IS ALL SHE IS,
IS A BODY OF HOLES.
THAT, THAT is what is ugly about Porn,
NOT the Oral [well I'm no fan of anal so won't go there] or how one kisses or massages, etc.,
IT IS IN THE FORCED OR IMAGE OF WOMEN BEING FORCED,
Porn is NOT erotica,
in word, image or form.
And I think, we need to ‘distinguish’ between that, or we get into that really dangerous area where we start putting these Puritanical ‘hate of self’ and Especially hate of the
VAGINA, yes, its called a Vagina people, GOD CREATED IT AND NO ITS NOT DIRTY,
and hate of CLITORIS, GOD CREATED IT AND NO ITS NOT DIRTY,
OR EVIL
and going back to the time where we, in This country, took little girls,
to get them ‘castrated’ because they might not be Chaste otherwise.
And oh, yes, YES, that Did happen, to thousands of girls back in the Puritanical DOGMA days, in both in USA and in Europe,
thank you mr. Freud.
He had a lot of influence over that…btw [its not always religion that is warped against women]
This I believe is where some real Healing needs to come in, and NO, Mr. Driscoll, advising women to give BJ to win husbands over, is NOT healing,
its not liberating and its not good ‘marital’ advice, Christian or Secular,
it shows, quite frankly, a Real Ignorance of Women’s Sexuality.
Because that is what Porn does, it defines from a Warped, Male Aggressive and Misogynist definition, of what sex should be,
and Porn, came from, war aggression, oh yes, that has a lot to do with militarization [pin up girls], forced prostitution, rape camps, the like….
THAT is what is not chaste. That is what is not pure,
when Men use Sex as A WEAPON,
its not sex anymore. Its war,
and that is what needs to be uprooted….NOT,
putting these Chastity belts of shame and body self hate on women,
if we go down that path, next thing you know,
we’ll have women in brown clothes, moral ’sex’ police, demanding women have FGMs and repenting of even the slightest enjoyment,
that women and women’s sexuality is some how Evil…of the Devil,
and I for one, will be the First, to stand opposed to that. We don’t need, to get into that line of thinking,
where, women and women’s sexuality, is something that has to be condemned and put into the coffin….
that is what Sharia Law does….
ever Wonder why, those millions of women in those countries, who have had their ’sexual organs’ ripped from their bodies,
never smile?
I have lived among them, no way in hell, would I ever support, that type of misogyny,
and there is a type of Misogynist ‘Chaste’ doctrine,
lets be very careful…there. Be sure, to speak from wisdom,
and NOT from
our pain.
[survivor of a mother who for years, did all in her power, to kill my sexuality....a mother, who for years, lived with that forced 'chaste' behavior in the extremes and who, learned to Hate Herself as a Woman, and to Hate all women, including her own daughter...., OS and Sex, is NOT the culprit,
its the 'intent' and 'motive' in the Hearts that is the culprit...we need to be able, to discern the difference.]
Jane
btw,
and yes, I may be a bit vocal on this, women’s bodies, were NOT made, to climax, by penile penetration Alone,
ITS A LIE….
we weren’t physically Made that way, and Why?
ITS COMMON SENSE,
there is a Reason, God created our bodies the way he did and why, women need that extra stimulation [and OS is one way],
because of CHILDBIRTH. IF our clitoris was closer to the vagina opening, it would be ripped apart and damaged, during CHILDBIRTH,
think about it.
This is why, there Is a need, to get ’sex’ out of the its dirty and evil compartment,
and start looking at sex, as what God created…get it OUT of the hands,
of the porn temple shrine cult dominion,
and into the hands of God’s
and His giving us Common Sense.
The problem Charis, with your husband, isn’t the OS,
or the other sex [unless its violent or debasing], its in his attitude towards you and All women,
that yes, he gets that reinforcement and justification in Porn [or vice versa],
its NOT the sex in itself.
That is why, its far more than just Sex, in marriage….its communication, respect, mutual giving/taking, etc.,
the sex is just the ‘desert’,
the Problem, is that, we have made Sex, the main course…
which is, LUST,
its not marriage, its not LOVE.
Huge difference,
and That, That is the Root of the problem, and That, is what
Chaste, is about.
A Chaste Woman, demands self-respect…she Also demands, that she is Just as entitled to pleasure, as her husband is [your body is not your own, his body is not his own],
she respects her body and is Thankful to God for the ‘uniqueness’ of her body,
a body that God has blessed with the ability to climax, which btw, Does have a LOT to do, with fertilizing the egg [and yes, our ovaries look Just like, flowers, and they open up, during climax....by a hormone called Octicin, (spell?)
the Same hormone, that brings down breast milk during feeding a baby, that same hormone, that starts Labor.
Our bodies are uniquely made by God,
and should be celebrated,
not condemned and repented of....
This is what Men need to be taught...but they won't be taught that, in Porn,
and its the Same way, with men's bodies.
In the Bible, God mentions, testicles, Oh my gosh, oh yes, He does. ! :0
The problem, is not in the acts of GIVING, its in how the acts,
have been turned, perverted and Demanded, as if they are some type of 'right' and the one forced to give is a subservient 'slave',
I have no problem, with OS, my husband doesn't Demand it though,
if he did, LOL,
yea, right buddy, here's a glove, enjoy.
You see, its about 'mutual respect' and That begins,
Before getting into that bed or table or car or what have you...
Once that mutual respect and love is not there, its not Chaste anymore.
And I am married to an unbeliever....has it always been great, sexually?
No, oh no,
but one thing I did learn, is to love, physically, as IF I was loving Jesus Himself,
it put a lot of things, in a whole different perspective, and God started working in my husband,
does that Mean I don't set boundaries?
NO, not at all, I DO set boundaries....respect me like the Queen I am [his queen, that is, his glory] or I don’t lay by thee,
its that simple. And I have no guilt about it either…I wouldn’t submit,
to vulgarity or demands or debasement…
I think, that is what Chaste is….
the Problem is, is that we have women, in our society, that have Internalized, that Porn type of misogyny, and the church,
obviously, [the wolves] are using that, to destroy women AND men.
Part of coming OUT of that internalization, of the Porn culture,
is Women, redefining, what Sexuality is to them,
and because women are Individual human beings, its not always the same for everyone….and often there needs to be a lot of healing.
And, Church,
seriously, men, GET A CLUE,
you’re take on sex, and from porn, seriously, take a frickin Sex ed course, hell, just the Physical basics, of what women’s bodies are,
because you are seriously, in the dark ages…
when it comes to women and sexuality, if you need Porn, to influence you, you’re really, in the dark.
Peace,
Jane
Why I am strongly opposed to all forms of medievalism
http://maryamnamazie.blogspot.com/
Pray, Iran, they need our prayers,
women, being shot dead, citizens, being shot and arrested while wounded in hospitals,
all to Overthrow, THEOCRACY OF HELL,
and to have the Freedom,
we so take for granted here.
They need OUR SOLIDARITY…
Peace,
Jane
Jane,
re:your 12:40 comment
The chastity which God charges a woman to guard in the marriage is not about “shame on you for pleasure”. God is not out to rob us of the pleasure. He invented sex. However, the cultivation of lust in marriage will ROB the couple of GOD’s best for them. Personally I can FEEL lust, and I can pray against it and pray to be CHASTE in the way GOD means here:
“chaste”- exciting reverence, venerable, sacred, pure, pure from carnality, chaste, modest, pure from every fault, immaculate, clean
“CHASTE“- NOT to be confused with non-orgasmic, or non pleasurable!
Per the passage, I would counsel a woman to seek GOD’s help fulfilling the CALLING He has given her in this passage. I would also suggest she unplug Driscoll on sex and pray for GOD to send an older woman mentor.
Charis,
in today’s climate of sexual DYSFUNCTION,
I wouldn’t even rely on an older woman, because most of them have issues just as much as the men do,
not of any fault of their own, or even men,
its the Culture we live in, and by that, I mean, also, the andro-centric Male worship culture,
ESPECIALLY, IN THE CHURCH.
It reminds me far too much of the women who police other women in Islam….under theocracy,
and I believe that is why, I do so strongly react to it…for one,
I don’t think, I want ‘anyone’ in my bed other than me and my husband…porn, other men, or other women.
God yes,
the Word yes,
other women, no. I think, though Charis, if it Wasn’t for the
RELIGIOUS AND VERY MISOGYNIST ‘INDOCTRINATION’ and INTERNALIZATIONS over the years, I would feel a lot different about this,
but as for even what we see as ‘teachings’ to women By older women in the church today,
most of them, I think are absolutely HORRID.
They do nothing to lift women up, rather, they TEAR WOMEN DOWN…
oh, they may Paint, this God’s gracious design for women, but anyone with any Thinking abililty
can see, its pure unadulterated male dominated crock.
On this, and I did pray about this today, I hate to say this, but I’m going to,
on women Centered and Women friendly advice, especially sexuality,
I think, this is where, the women centered ‘goddess’ even, beliefs, far outweigh, the Christian Western beliefs, and what I mean by that is,
they are pro-woman body rather than anti, they are pro-woman gifts, rather than anti-, and they are Extremely,
pro-woman centered in contrast to the worship of the ‘male’ and ‘male hierarchy’.
While I DO NOT, concur with them on the ‘goddess’ beliefs, I do concur with them, on most everything else,
and it is this, that the Christian ‘women’, are severely lacking,
no fault of our own, but its been the outcome, of YEARS, DECADES EVEN, of living under the strict mandates and definitions of women’s roles and what women are, under the Doctrines
and language, of MEN.
There is just something, about the whole ‘chaste’ thing, maybe because of the Damage done to women, under the Catholic church,
and I dare will say it….because its TRUE.
Mara mentioned, Queen Elizabeth, but I would safely bet, most women, in the Church, are NOT aware, of the
BLATANT HATRED and I do mean HATRED, of the Queens, of ALL WOMEN,
by not just Catholics, but Protestants. Including, the Protestants that came to This country….they HATED the queens,
but, now, a King, a WHORE KING, well, that was just fine and dandy, as long as he printed Bibles or catered to the church, so What, if he had his wife killed, to marry another or to marry a child, etc.,
happened ALL THE TIME….
the history of the ‘church’ and of controlling women, is just too long and too deep, to deny the Damage, the Harm, done to
Women’s culture,
we’ve lost our arts, our crafts, our healing works [and not speaking of witchcraft here either], our music, our poetry, our sexuality, perfume making, all of it…
stripped away, bit by bit, to be ‘re-created’ as some pure male defined purity, Virginal, door mat mouse, for the worship of ONE MAN KING, in the home.
Unless, we begin to look to the past, and by past, I mean antiquity, to women’s culture, I think, any teaching, will still be, Extremely, patriarchal,
and the sad thing is, the Church, the Institution, did ALL IN THEIR POWER,
TO ERASE
CHRISTIAN WOMEN’S CULTURE AND HER STORY.
And it is Still happening….this is why, I do think, like the secular feminists are doing,
we Must, challenge, Every teaching, that has been handed down, generation after generation, to women, and find out, what God truly wanted,
because, its just too obvious, we have lost our identity as women, as women CREATED BY GOD, FOR GOD,
not just for ‘men’.
And I do think, its for this reason, so many women, ARE leaving the Body of Christ, and are going over, to the other beliefs,
we can’t even begin to ‘train’ women Charis, until We, are set free, from the POISON PATRIARCHAL MISOGYNIST CHRISTIAN TEACHINGS that are truly, more along the lines of the woman hate that was in ancient Babylon,
and find our roots.
And it is here, that I am searching the ancient texts, including Judaism [before those got warped as well],
and, maybe this is why too, I do believe, there is a need, for some serious, separatism, at least, if not in body, in Spirit, for women,
we need to find, ourselves, as women, both as individuals and as a collective in Christ,
away, from the dogma and the doctrines of old….
until we do, we just, transfer, all those internalizations and hurts, over to the next generation.
Does any of what I just said, make sense??????
I can’t put my finger, quite on it, but I see it…
Love,
Jane
Jane, I didn’t suggest she “rely on an older woman”. I agree with you on the risks of that. I suggested she pray that GOD would send her an older woman mentor.
Do you hear the difference?
The “reliance” is on GOD, who is responsible to equip us to do and be what HE CALLS us to do and be.
I also wanted to add,
when I was praying about this [after I posted] today, this came to me,
“to the pure all things are pure”.
and then, “touch not their unclean things, separate yourselves, etc”
so, there we have a balance,
problem is, though, when it comes to women, its usually, in the extremes.
I want to add too, this isn’t just a problem, within the church as far as women identifying or ‘redefining’ what it means to be a woman
the Feminists, are having the very same issue…some say, all sex is rape, and have vowed spinsterhood. And the thing is, THEY HAVE A POINT,
but its in the Extreme,
others, take the pro-sex, approach, and THEY HAVE A POINT TOO,
but its in the Extreme…
the thing is though, Both, cater to the extremes of Male hate to women,
either she is the pure ‘madonna’ or
the pure ‘madonna’ during the day and ‘vamp’ at night
or
just the vapid ’siren’ nympth (sic) vamp that should be tilthed but then, of course, she’s going to hell but men will be forgiven because well by golly gee, they Just can’t help their poor selves.
All three, are though, misogynist, meaning, there is an underlying hate of ‘women-self’, of the female, and that misogynist male hate of women.
I think, maybe that, we Should read, the Song of Solomon, as not just a Spiritual book of symbolism, but also, literally,
Why?
Because, look at the ‘value’ placed, on the woman, not only that, but there are numerous other scriptures, in the OT as well as the NT, about women,
and women’s sexuality, but they may not be that literal, but they are there.
I guess what I am trying to say, is that, when Women, when We, begin to truly embrace ourselves, our sexuality, all of it, outside of the ‘male and Religious Misogynist box’, and dump
the internalizations, we truly can begin, then to demand,
respect…which I feel, is what, Chaste truly is.
Its like worship…ok, God, had strict rules, for the High Priests, when going into the Holy Temple,
He didn’t tolerate, ’strange fire’,
He demanded, cleansing, He demanded, certain guidelines, BEFORE the Priests could enter…they were strict,
was this because God was just this rigid harsh God or was it,
that it was more, that God, demanded, Respect, for His most Intimate of Space?
Exactly like, the precious Intimacy of women, I don’t know exactly how to say this, but, I see a strong parallel here,
and I do believe, God understands far more, the heart of woman here, than all the men in the ages, could Even begin, to fathom here.
This is an area, where women, do share with God, in my opinion,
and like the most Holy and Loving Arms of God, men have reviled God, have raged against God, have treated God with contempt, have abused God, have even, raped God,
by insisting on Him giving to them, their demands [women do this too btw] yet, not obeying God,
not taking the time, truly the time, to spend, intimately, just adoring God…
its a quick, wham bam thank you God type of thing,
God does understand, He says so, ALL OVER SCRIPTURE, why I LOVE the OT,
its there, its just So there….God reveals His personality, so much,
and honestly, I don’ t know how Any woman, can not just fall madly in love with God, reading the OT, just as much as the NT,
God is a God of ‘details’, I mean, He takes this extra care, for Everything He does,
to the most finite detail….His beauty, His colors, everything,
He weaves every thing in His creation, to the utmost perfection, and that includes,
creation of human life. I think, if we Truly, really knew, just how connected our bodies our, seriously, to the entire life process, the rhythm, the grace, the strength, the way our bodies work in side,
the way our body tastes like salt, including yes, sexual…the Ocean, tastes like salt…
you know, things like that, that we just Take for granted…that all support
Life systems.
over the human years human kind has contributed these things to ‘gods’ and ‘goddesses’, because they have been lied and deceived and have believed those lies,
but no, all this time, it was God, who created and knitted and weaved and spun, and there is no words,
to describe, just how awesome, That, That is what, we need to define women with too, including yes, sexuality.
My concern, is that the way ‘chaste’ has been used, in that way where sex is ONLY for pro-creation or that its to be treated as something dirty but necessary….
is just extremely harmful and not only that, it misses the point,
those same ‘distortions’ have also said, women are evil because they are ‘nature’, or ‘carnal’,
but, what does Carnal mean?
And I think, that is where a lot of the distortion comes from….I’m not talking in anyway, the blatant and oh so obvious disregard for God, for Creation, for Life, for Love, for Intimacy, that is in porn,
porn is nothing but vulgar,
and that is that yes, lust….lust meaning, no self control,
but, I think, too, there has to be, some discernment, on what self control is too, that its self-control and not
rigidity.
I don’t know a lot, and I’m no expert, but I do know this,
children, do NOT have the hang ups, about their bodies, about being curious, etc., about romance, etc., about play, about being un-inhibited, why Children can run, sing, dance, skip, turn around under the sky, without the
self-consciousness,
unless there has been abuse or forced loss of innocence, etc.
But, to me, I think, that is what sexuality Should be, between a man and wife….
before God and that cord of three not easily broken…
sadly though, because of war, conquest, women as ‘loot’, rape, porn, commodification of women/human beings in labor in general, all of it,
we’ve lost that. Pagans, try to gain back, that former innocence,
but they do it, in that hedonism and in that consuming fire, lust, that is way beyond desire, and like vampires, they just feast and feast and they are never satisfied,
because, they are missing the true gift, its Not just about what is in the loins, so to speak,
that to me, is what Lust is.
I mentioned, on an earlier post, how we’ve lost ‘romance’…and by romance, I’m not talking, the ‘fantasy’ of Hollywood, though, at one time, true romance was in the movies,
but, that intimate romance, that lovers, married or otherwise, shared, back in the earlier epochs,
where, they could make love with only their words.
We’ve lost that, in our vulgar and hedonist and dysfunctional world today,
maybe, what is needed, is, a one year training, LOL, for married couples, to just love, only with Words,
in intimate ways…
an example, so you know what I mean, what I speak of here, remember, Words have Power.
a letter, to Josephine, from Napoleon, chose this because its short…
Dec. 29, 1795
I awake all filled with you. Your image and the intoxicating pleasures of last night, allow my senses no rest.
Sweet and matchless Josephine, how strangely you work upon my heart.
Are you angry with me? Are you unhappy? Are you upset?
My soul is broken with grief and my love for you forbids repose. But how can I rest any more, when I yield to the feeling that masters my inmost self, when I quaff from your lips and from your heart a scorching flame?
Yes! One night has taught me how far your portrait falls short of yourself!
You start at midday: in three hours I shall see you again.
Till then, a thousand kisses, mio dolce amor! but give me none back for they set my blood on fire.
I have a book, full of antiquity, letters, even some between a man and woman, who were both, in those convents, that had married people but who separated,
talk about, people who KNEW how to Love with just the pen, the word,
and the ones women wrote, were just as heart wrenching,
we’ve Lost that art, of how to love with words,
and we Think, that we can fix, the dysfunction in sex?
I don’t think so….because its far more, than just the exchange of fluids,
the thing is, we’ve become so engrossed in the ‘machinery’ of life, of the materialist world,
we’ve lost our true sense, of self, as Humans…and it has, transferred over,
even into, our relationship with God Himself.
Just some things, I’ve been pondering on… [my thoughts, not claiming this to be a word from the Lord, just thoughts and words from my heart]
Peace,
Jane
there is something, about words, even Jesus said,
every word we speak [and write] we will give account for, Why is that?
I am beginning to believe, that we truly, can’t ‘love’ until, we learn, to love with our words….
is it any wonder then, Why we have, the problems in intimacy and in relationships, from the interpersonal to the political, in our world today?
some letters, to lift up, dry parched in need of some love-dew words, I believe, women, truly need these words, every day, and I believe, this is how, God, would have, every woman, loved….
sending in love…Jane
Juliette Drouet (actress) to Victor Hugo (French writer), 1835
If only I were a clever woman, I could describe to you my gorgeous bird, how you unite in yourself the beauties of form, plumage, and song!
I would tell you that you are the greatest marvel of all ages, and I should only be speaking the simple truth. But to put all this into suitable words, my superb one, I should require a voice far more harmonious than that which is bestowed upon my species – for I am the humble owl that you mocked at only lately, therefore, it cannot be.
I will not tell you to what degree you are dazzling and to the birds of sweet song who, as you know, are none the less beautiful and appreciative.
I am content to delegate to them the duty of watching, listening and admiring, while to myself I reserve the right of loving; this may be less attractive to the ear, but it is sweeter far to the heart.
I love you, I love you, my Victor; I cannot reiterate it too often; I can never express it as much as I feel it.
I recognise you in all the beauty that surrounds me in form, in colour, in perfume, in harmonious sound: all of these mean you to me. You are superior to all I see and admire – you are all!
You are not only the solar spectrum with the seven luminous colours, but the sun himself that illumines, warms, and revivifies! This is what you are, and I am the lowly woman that adores you.
Juliette March 1820
Sweetest Fanny,
You fear, sometimes, I do not love you so much as you wish? My dear Girl I love you ever and ever and without reserve. The more I have known you the more have I lov’d. In every way – even my jealousies have been agonies of Love, in the hottest fit I ever had I would have died for you. I have vex’d you too much. But for Love! Can I help it? You are always new. The last of your kisses was ever the sweetest; the last smile the brightest; the last movement the gracefullest. When you pass’d my window home yesterday, I was fill’d with as much admiration as if I had then seen you for the first time. You uttered a half complaint once that I only lov’d your Beauty. Have I nothing else then to love in you but that? Do not I see a heart naturally furnish’d with wings imprison itself with me? No ill prospect has been able to turn your thoughts a moment from me. This perhaps should be as much a subject of sorrow as joy – but I will not talk of that. Even if you did not love me I could not help an entire devotion to you: how much more deeply then must I feel for you knowing you love me. My Mind has been the most discontented and restless one that ever was put into a body too small for it. I never felt my Mind repose upon anything with complete and undistracted enjoyment – upon no person but you. When you are in the room my thoughts never fly out of window: you always concentrate my whole senses. The anxiety shown about our Love in your last note is an immense pleasure to me; however you must not suffer such speculations to molest you any more: not will I any more believe you can have the least pique against me. Brown is gone out — but here is Mrs Wylie — when she is gone I shall be awake for you. — Remembrances to your Mother.
Your affectionate, J. Keats
Lord Byron ~ August 25, 1819
My dearest Teresa,
I have read this book in your garden;–my love, you were absent, or else I could not have read it. It is a favourite book of yours, and the writer was a friend of mine. You will not understand these English words, and others will not understand them,–which is the reason I have not scrawled them in Italian. But you will recognize the handwriting of him who passionately loved you, and you will divine that, over a book which was yours, he could only think of love.
In that word, beautiful in all languages, but most so in yours–Amor mio–is comprised my existence here and hereafter. I feel I exist here, and I feel I shall exist hereafter,–to what purpose you will decide; my destiny rests with you, and you are a woman, eighteen years of age, and two out of a convent. I love you, and you love me,–at least, you say so, and act as if you did so, which last is a great consolation in all events.
But I more than love you, and cannot cease to love you. Think of me, sometimes, when the Alps and ocean divide us, –but they never will, unless you wish it.
Glad to see some women taking issue with the guy in Ballard. I’m not going to participate here, not really qualified to talk on marriage and family topics. Never been there. One thing I am most certain about, Mr. D is dishing out some unhealthy fodder for his sheep. My advise is simple. Don’t be one of his sheep.
Thanks for dropping in c. stirling.
It is good to hear a male voice once in a while that won’t tolerate the selfserving heresies spewed out by men like Driscoll.
It is validating to the women who have to deal with such trash, who have to listen to insecure men demand submission in the name of God.
I just don’t want to let this opportunity go by of letting you know my appreciation.
“and yes, I may be a bit vocal on this, women’s bodies, were NOT made, to climax, by penile penetration Alone,
ITS A LIE….
we weren’t physically Made that way, and Why?
ITS COMMON SENSE,
there is a Reason, God created our bodies the way he did and why, women need that extra stimulation [and OS is one way]”
Forgive me, but I think this is wildly inaccurate. Doesn’t it require more than just physical “equipment” for a man to climax (or indeed make love) in the first place? Surely if he is not mentally and physically aroused in readiness for the sexual act, he can do neither. Similarly although it’s true that a woman can submit to sex without getting enjoyment from it, it’s also true that certain parts of her body have no other function but provide her with sexual enjoyment, and that, with the right degree of mental arousal, she can easily climax through penile penetration and does not necessarily require “extra stimulation”.
In my view God created us differently in order to make the “perfect fit” for equal sexual pleasure.
“It is validating to the women who have to deal with such trash, who have to listen to insecure men demand submission in the name of God.”
What about women who WANT to give their submission in the name of God?
but as for even what we see as ‘teachings’ to women By older women in the church today,
most of them, I think are absolutely HORRID.
They do nothing to lift women up, rather, they TEAR WOMEN DOWN…
oh, they may Paint, this God’s gracious design for women, but anyone with any Thinking abililty
can see, its pure unadulterated male dominated crock.
Jane,
I just read through some of your posts on this thread.
I completely agree with what you say above, and it’s something that is so hard for younger women like me. I haven’t found any older woman who I can go to regarding intimate issues in my marriage. I tried to talk with two or three who were close, and I felt confident wouldn’t go tell their husbands about it, but their advice was rather odd.
My mother is an older woman I’d consider to be very wise in many areas, but she never knows what to say when I tell her about struggles in my marriage. I don’t know if she just doesn’t want to know what to say… She often offers to pass me on to my dad!
Another older woman told me to give dh sex, even if I don’t feel like it at all, even if it hurts, just to clench my teeth and have it over with. Talk about lovemaking….
Another one said to give sex, even if I’m not up to it at all, or even if I’m tired, as a service to the Lord.
You know? I tried both, the turning my face away and clenching my teeth, hoping it would be over soon. Do you really think my dh didn’t feel rejected?
And I tried focusing on serving the Lord, submitting to my husband’s desires, but I felt like God was using me.
Has anyone else noticed how contradictive advice to women regarding sex is?
Before marriage, be modest, don’t dress in anything that might cause your brothers to look at you with desire and sin, etc… ( ie. they are responsible for men’s reactions to their bodies)
After marriage, don’t you dare not give it to him whenever he wants it, take initiative, and be sure you give him what he wants! Just those instructions (which are given a bit less bluntly), convey the message that sex is not about us enjoying it, but it’s about the man getting his needs met.
Do we really have to wonder why so many women have issues with their sexuality?
Btw, I haven’t talked to my mother about any sexual problems…. too embarassing! We’ve never really had a conversation about sex!
Madame,
well, ;how to say this,
ok, well, I’ll just be really blunt. Is it, first of all, your H just demanding sex and you not wanting, or is it, a poor relationship, and then his demanding and the feeling like being used, etc?
In other words, is it a problem in the ‘relationship’ as a whole [because sex is the desert, not the core] OR is it a problem, in the sexual relationship [e.g., is he selfish, your needs not being met, etc],
because Depending on which one [or both], has a lot to do with how to begin to confront the problem [and it takes two, its not a one way street but if your husband isn't wanting to cope/confront then, you have to find ways to cope/without destroying yourself and there are some things I have learned, that have helped me a lot],
so, I think, that has to be answered first.
That I think is where it can get a tad complicated and why ‘blanket’ answers don’t work, those nice little ministry ‘formulas’ because it really depends on the relationship,
the baggage both bring into the relationship, the expectations of sex of Both in the relationship and so forth. And then, throw in the internalizations that women have, if not from church [they are bad enough], but from our society as a whole,
well, it gets tricky.
I will say this, I don’t have the best marriage, ok, but its not the most horrid either, but then, I have to be frank and say, I’m pretty tough, I spent years, literally selling myself for survival, from very young age (16) so on some days, I hurt, on some days, it doesn’t bother me, maybe I’m just so disconnected, or just hard, who knows,
but, on those days, that it does hurt, one thing that Jesus Did do for me, and it was actually after I came back to the Lord and he started to ’soften’ my heart, and that was when the sex got really horrible because I couldn’t just play Bambi the Hooker anymore, I had to feel and it was like being raped,
and twice, during, I just broke, literally, in sobs, and of course, all my husband could think, was oh he must be hurting me because he’s just so big and all that male ego crap.
He had no idea…and I didn’t tell him,
but anyway, the second/third time, I broke, I just cried out in my heart to Jesus that I just couldn’t do this anymore and that was it, I wanted to commit suicide and I seriously was planning it out…and immediately, when I was sobbing, hiding my face from my husband so he couldn’t see, Jesus said,
love him as if you were loving me. And that is what I did, I remember, touching his back, thanking Jesus, for being healed by His stripes…and well, without going into detail,
something just happened, and after that, God started showing me, about sexuality and creation and life and nature and how I and all women are a part of that and then it just changed for me,
I think about God during sex, I think about nature, the ocean, the volcanoes, how they give organic life to the planet, how it all works [it helps to read up a lot on biology and the environment and geology] and well,
my husband can be in lust but as for me, I’m concentrating on God’s creation-LIFE and the planet and for me, I feel like a goddess, sort of, you know, and well, its not even About my husband anymore…
of course, now I will say, my husband IS giving, sexually and I wouldn’t sleep with him if he wasn’t, I don’t do that whole, men climax and women just put out garbage, that I would throw his ass out of bed and I wouldn’t Care what any preacher says…I’d be handing him a twenty and telling him, hit the blvd and I would mean it.
And my thing is, ladies first…if they don’t like that,
TOUGH, THERE’S A CHICKEN IN THE FREEZER, WARM IT UP.
[yea not really submissive but oh well, as far as the Bed is concerned, if they want submissive then, shoot, let them buy a plastic doll because I ain't no doll and this isn't the era of B.C.]
And I will say, at least from my experience, where that is concerned, any man that has issues with that, well, I don’t know, for me, might as well just be single, if he’s that much of a selfish asshole…because That isn’t even a marriage, that’s just a man with a owned body.
And if its that way anyway, then why be married? You can ‘burn’ while single too, you know…
see told you I was blunt. [this isn't the Christian advice btw, but this is how I honestly feel, it might be wrong, but, well, oh well]
But, now if its relationship and the sex isn’t bad but he’s an asshole [sort of like my husband though he has his good days], well, then, depending on if its prior issues [and I have those too] or what have you,
I think, its getting the mindset out of the whole ‘I’m being used’ because even if you are,
its still a marriage and well, no easy advice I have there, I”m not real big on the whole, God will change mr. frog into the prince type of thing, because people have free will,
and to me, its like, what does one do Until then, or what if it never happens, and there is the whole not wanting to divorce, etc., what then?
Well, for Me, it was, either I just die inside till I’m catatonic, or something, and God just healed me and delivered me from my husband’s issues,
and I will say, the sex, was out of this world, a few times, not that it was different,
but that, it was about God, at least, in My mind, and I relished in it…and my husband, he knows, because I told him, after wards, what I thought sex was and how special it is and how its all connected to Life/Creation and well,
he don’t care, he gets his off you know and well, yea, that hurts but you know,
its turning lemons, making them into lemonaide.
Its not utopia, but, its a lot better, than breaking into two during and loathing myself. NOT that I don’t still struggle, with the anger and disgust, I do,
but, I just turn and think, nature and the feminine side of God and well, I”m in a whole different world then and well, I’m in a different zone.
I can be just as loving and affectionate [and I've become even more so to my husband] and NOT feel, used and like a penis ashtray,
because regardless, of what his mind is, and I DO set boundaries, no name calling, no using vulgarity, there are some things, I will get down right crude about, not tolerating, and I feel no guilt about it,
and no painful things, never have tolerated that, not in this marriage, did in the past but that is one thing feminism Did do for me, I don’t tolerate pain, if they want pain, fine,
its like, baby, your’ turn first, got a baseball bat right here…and I’ll do it…
I don’t care. I think, sometimes, you just Have to learn to love and respect yourself, because if you don’t,
they aren’t going to.
Know what I’m saying?
This, btw, is not the usual Christian advice, and its not that ’submit’ and suffer as Christ did, because that is so that others can come to Christ,
I don’t think, that is meant, for a mutual exchange in the bed. And any man who uses that [or anyone] to get the permission/or means to sexually abuse a woman,
in my opinion, needs their asses kicked.
But, that’s me, and well, if its wrong, Jesus forgive me,
but, that is where I stand on that.
Hope that helps…
Jane
it’s also true that certain parts of her body have no other function but provide her with sexual enjoyment, and that, with the right degree of mental arousal, she can easily climax through penile penetration and does not necessarily require “extra stimulation”.
Bull,
you’re obviously a MAN.
Take a fricking biology course, SERIOUSLY….
and no, I won’t be nice about it. ITs typical MISOGYNIST SELF CENTERED statements like this,
that leave thousands of women believing that there is something wrong if they don’t climax with penetration alone, that its all mental,
tell you what, IF its all mental, then why don’t women climax while driving in a car just ‘thinking’ about it?
What a load of b.s. Seriously,
and its Typical PORN SEX EDUCATION,
and I have no issue in getting really blunt in stating so. Lets confront the LIES shall we,
the clitoris, is the way it is, because if you know anything about a woman’s anatomy and CHILDBIRTH,
if it was lower, it would TEAR during childbirth,
and the clitoris is very similar to the male penis, that is why, FGMs are not ‘circumcision’, they are Castrations.
This is 2009, ok, NOT 1915,
and Freud went out years ago…women, for the most part, do NOT CLIMAX,
without clitoris stimulation, THAT IS BIOLOGICAL FACT.
If you don’t believe me, pick up a anatomy-medical book, and learn your biology,
rather, than what the Male PORN definition and sex ed is, about women. Leave those MYTHS,
for the Locker room at high school.
BTW, millions of women will TELL YOU SO,
and, if you discredit them, I suppose, you know more about how all those millions of women’s bodies Do work, and if you are MAN,
it just goes to show, how really ignorant you are…about women’s bodies. And if that is the case,
no wonder, there is So much sexual dysfunction in Christian marriages.
Jane
sorry to get really Blunt there but I have no qualms,
about Blasting, THAT KIND OF MISOGYNIST MISINFORMATION,
that HARMS WOMEN,
I am Christian, I am also a very Vocal Advocate for Women’s Human Rights,
and I won’t play nice nice when there is Blatant, disregard for women’s Human rights,
and that whole women can climax just by mental, is the Typical
SELFISH garbage Selfish and TOO LAZY OF A MAN will tell his wife, to get his off,
while she burns and burns and then gets physically ILL from the years of pent up frustration,
and that is why women get migraines and ulcers and if you don’t believe me,
DO YOUR RESEARCH.
And if you are a woman Caro,
I strongly suggest, the same advice, if This is what you believe [and only a Few, small percentage of women CAN climax penetration alone, and I"m talking a small, percentage and its the way they are built, usually their clitoris is a little lower, not all women are built the same]
but point being, it is Harmful, to just state what you did, as some blanket truth for ALL WOMEN,
because the TRUTH IS,
EMPHASIS ON TRUTH
women aren’t all built the same way, AND a LOT of that whole misogynist women can climax without stimulation,
is not only selfishness on the Man’s part,
its a lot of also, that whole, women’s bodies are dirty and sinful and nasty garbage…
And, I have no issue, in being very blunt and TRUTHFUL about these facts, BIOLOGICAL AND PROVEN FACTS,
we don’t torture and burn women to the stake now days [at least I hope not] and accuse them of being ‘witches’ just because oh my gosh they have a clitoris,
they DID back in the DARK AGES,
and that is where that Porn sex ed women can climax with just the ole big you know what alone,
belongs,
IN THE DARK AGES.
Jane
Love rejoices in the TRUTH,
not in LIES,
so, here’s some truth, for the MEN out here that read…
its really simple, since, obviously, for so many who have the sensitivity to their wives/women as a Shark has for a fish,
lets see if talking Money, might make a dent in some ‘hardened’ and misogynist hearts out there. If, you think, that its only the penetration [or just flat don't care] is all it takes, while you obviously never seen Harry met Sally, how well she ‘faked’ it, and oh, trust me, women, we have all faked it at least, once in our lives [another one of those porn-sex ed myths, that whole lets be feminine martyrs as to not hurt the poor male ego],
let me put it to you This way. Why not, pick up a biology female body book [helps to have one not printed before 1500] and learn how the female body works,
then, well, try it, and lets see how much $$$ kaching money you save, in Doctor and Medical bills, from NOT having to spend $$$ on headache medicines and ulcer medicines and other illness related medicine from years of pent up sexual frustration-stress,
and you can Then take that money, since obviously, to most MEN in America, that pocket of cash means so much more to you than your wife’s happiness, and you can take that Saved cash [of course, now you might have to uh, learn not to be repulsed by the female body] and you can buy you some Golf Clubs or some other Toy,
and you might just be surprised to find, your wife is no longer frigid, irritable, and just down right Cold to you.
Gee, duh, shock. You know,
but IF, you insist, on keeping your misogynist views and MALE ENTITLEMENTS to have and use your wife as your penis ashtray and squirt box while she ‘burns’, because you know its that ole ‘curse’ thing,
well, I say, Do it all the way,
why, if you Love the curse so much, make Sure, you don’t let your wife work, no earning no extra cash now boys, and you should go back/revert All the way back to the cave man days,
and grab yourself an ox, and a plow, and Adam, you go dig up that soil [this is After you sell your Car, cars, your house, your Toys, your big screen t.v. that your ole doubled cursed wife probably helped you pay for],
and you go, and you farm that land brother, you till that land while it spews thorns and bristles to you and you Praise the Lord the entire time,
because by golly, its that remaining in the Curse and keeping Women in that curse, that is to be chased after, why its just so Holy and all. Right??????
And, well, if That isn’t archaic enough for you, there is Always Islam,
you can chain your wife and castrate her and sell your daughters and pay those taxes because you know, Islam means,
SUBMISSION,
and we just Know, how much the misogynists who are taking over the churches in America, just Love that whole submission doctrine [of course, unbalanced and twisted of course to meet the selfish 'flesh' needs of men].
Love,
rejoices in the TRUTH,
not in lies.
And, TRUTH IS, its A LIE, that all women need is to mentally think to climax, and I suppose, the clitoris is just some ‘decor’ that is wasted, that God Himself, created,
and if That be the case,
may I suggest then, that the Tongue too, is just for decor, and we no longer eat with them, we instead, just shove a gastro tube in our belly button and just forgo the whole eat-taste thing too. And be really ‘puritan’ then.
I think,
you get the point.
I agree with submission, as Unto the Lord, I agree, with the Bible,
but No where, in the Bible, does it perpetuate or condone or say, anywhere, that women are to submit to sex with no expectation of pleasure and that its some ‘extra sacrifice’ if a man thinks of someone other than his selfish self. In fact,
even Solomon, who, btw, had how many wives/women, mentions the ‘caperberry’, NOT caperberries, plural, in Eccle,
so, um, even He, had more common sense, when it came to women’s bodies.
So, men in the church, while I don’t have any right to say anything over men or to a church, etc., on a Women’s forum, such as this, I will, confront the lies, and say what is true,
and Brothers, you need to get with the program, this is, after all, 2009, there is NO EXCUSE for ignorance of women’s bodies and for sexual selfishness in Christian marriages especially, [and women, this goes for you too]
we aren’t in Iran, we aren’t in Afghanistan, can we please, leave the dark age misogyny, where it belongs,
and, as Paul himself said, Defraud ye not One another, sexually,
not, women, defraud not your husbands but husbands, well, ya know, she can just ‘mentally’ do her self…
lets stop twisting scripture, to perpetuate, a misogynist false gospel.
God created the clitoris, God created women’s bodies and their sexual peaks differently, for a Reason, God is HOLY,
and if God wanted women to just be frustrated/or castrated, He himself, would have not created our bodies the way He did…
it doesn’t Take a genius, to figure it out. [and, if that doesn't convince you, well, maybe, learning, and Pleasing your wife and Listening to Her, rather than just to your selfish male view, just might save you a lot of $$$, on doctor bills and depression meds, so forth, and counseling/divorce and child support,
and, well, you might just have that extra cash, to pay for that toy you been praying for.]
just saying…
Jane
Just to clarify some of the points that people have picked up on. Firstly I’m definitely not a man. Caro is short for ‘Caroline’ and I’m a married Christian woman. I absolutely agree that not all women are made exactly the same and that you cannot generalize and say that every woman is able to climax from penetration alone. That is exactly why I take exception*your*sweeping but equally groundless assertion that “most women” cannot. I also wonder if it even has occured to you that some women might not actually *like* oral sex or the other forms of “stimulation” that seem to appeal to you and that it could be *these* things that they consider a turn off and a male imposition while they find penetration to be enjoyable. I won’t go into rather rude your comments about “research” and “biology” except to say that you can find support for more or less *any* pet theory if you are sufficiently determined to prove you are right and everyone else is wrong.
Secondly, exactly why is it “Bull” to say that God gave women the physical attributes and capacity for sexual enjoyment in the same way that He gave these things to men? Is it because it conflicts with your statement that He didn’t? Frankly I can’t think of another reason why you would dismiss what is, to use your own description, “a bilogical fact”.
Finally and most important of all, please do not attribute to me things which I have never said. While I tried to point out that there are women who actually get their sexual enjoyment from the very act of voluntary submission, at no point have I ever endorsed the view that it is a woman’s role to submit by allowing her husband to take his pleasure at her expense and without giving anything in return. On the contrary I believe this to be about as far from the biblical image as it could possibly get. In what way would a man be treating his wife as his own body if he virtually raped her at will? How does he “love” his wife if he treats her in this way? The bible, particularly the Song of Solomon, is full of romantic and loving sexual images and nowhere does it imply that only the man is entitled to pleasure and fulfilment and the woman should be used only as the means to that end. As one of the “older Christian women” that you generalise about, I have to say that I have every sympathy for “madame” and I believe that her husband’s behavior is both sexually and maritally unhealthy and unbiblical in the extreme. In my view until he troubles to honor *his* biblical obligations towards her, she has no biblical obligation to submit to him. The submission passages are about a two way marital relationship. They are not about a husband getting what he wants at the expense of the wife he is supposed to love and honor.
I’m not sure whether I would classify this as “Misogyny” in every case because I’m pretty sure that in many cases it has nothing at all to do with general hatred of women and much more to do with thoughtlessness and lack of understanding. It could also be the case that some couples with sexual problems don’t have the same diverse views and problems in the other areas of their lives.. Could it be that, rather than talking it over with other women, they need to make their husbands aware of how they feel?
Caro
My apologies for the spelling mistakes and typing errors in my previous post. Hot on the heels of a long night shift is a bad time to make a post.
I meant to add to my most recent comments that, in my view, Jane’s last post is a perfect example of gender based dislike in that it shows dislike and bitter contempt for the male sex in general and could be said to qualify as “misandry”. On the other hand, nowhere in this discussion or in the article on which it is based, has any male come even close to expressing similar sentiments (misogyny) towards women-kind.
Hi Caroline,
Welcome and thank you for sharing your perspective
In this discussion, only one man commented, so that is not a very big sample, (and I am most grateful for his respectful demeanor- thank you c stirling bartholemew!) .
In “the article on which it is based”, I would have to say that IMO the “shoving it down women’s throats” finger wagging preaching and advocacy of “blow job evangelism” through deplorable scripture twisting is far worse than (mere) “misogyny” (or misandry).
Its blasphemy
(and I find it misogynist as well- its degrading, exploitative, and disrespectful of women, and BTW it sure lowers men into the gutter- that a preacher man thinks its ok to preach it- so I suppose its misandry too. Misanthropy- that sums it up.).
I meant to add to my most recent comments that, in my view, Jane’s last post is a perfect example of gender based dislike in that it shows dislike and bitter contempt for the male sex in general and could be said to qualify as “misandry”. On the other hand, nowhere in this discussion or in the article on which it is based, has any male come even close to expressing similar sentiments (misogyny) towards women-kind.
Gender dislike, no, looking at the Reality of millions of women AND women who yes, experience MARITAL RAPE in Christian homes, and it happens a LOT as well as the constant ‘dishonoring’ they receive at the hands of misogynists who because few if any in our Modern day church actually Stress the part about husbands love your wives, and the fact that this forum is even here, IS EVIDENT OF THIS FACT, or it Wouldn’t be here nor would the ex-Quiverfull blog or the Danni Moss blog or the I’ve counted at least twenty blogs that state the same thing, including one Catholic blog where they are begging the prodigal daughters to come back,
yet, Refusing to even this day, apologize of their perpetuation and causal of misogyny and IT IS
MISOGYNY.
[I won't even go into the depth of reporting the hundreds of cases of CHILD SEX ABUSE that is RAMPANT in the Catholic AND Protestant churches, but I will say, Thank you Jesus, that at least, the Government, IS going to step up, charges against the abuses that the Church in HER refusal, refuses to do, as Commanded by scripture, in BOTH OLD AND NEW TESTAMENTS.]
Fact of the matter is, the Bible says, women submit in all things as unto the Lord [unless its sin] and that includes husbands who are harsh and problem is this, Caro,
when the Church, as a whole, ONLY teaches submission and maybe once a year mentions, with a ta ta attitude about men’s responsibility to ‘love their wives’, men are Going to abuse the scriptures for their selfish wants,
AND, being that in our modern day, few IF ANY, churches, reprimand or even hint at excommunication, of men/women who blatantly commit sin, so they will Repent,
leaves the message that its tolerable to yes, abuse and even rape and beat women. And it is going on, WITH IMPUNITY,
all under the ‘lets turn an eye and Pretend it doesn’t go on and of course, lets make Money, in healing ministries for the thousands of victims, who receive NO JUSTICE because we have refused to do WHAT IS JUST. That isn’t misandry or gender dislike Caro,
THAT IS FACT.
Jeremiah 8:11 The Lord says, “For they have healed the HURT of the DAUGHTER OF MY PEOPLE ‘SLIGHTLY’, saying,
PEACE, PEACE’ when there is NO PEACE.
And, what does the Lord say, right before He says Why He will do what He will do:
Jeremiah 8:10 The Lord says, “Therefore I will give their wives unto others, and their fields to them that shall inherit them; for EVERY ONE from the least to the greatest IS GIVEN TO ‘COVETOUSNESS’, from the PROPHET even unto the PRIEST every one DEALETH FALSELY.
That isn’t gender dislike Caro,
that is the Word of the Lord…the gender dislike accusation is the typical EVASIVE MOVE that this nation/church does to REFUSE TO TAKE A HARD LOOK,
AND
REPENT.
Therefore, Islam is at the door, Submission,
the Evidence is all over this nation, women, who are hurting, from abuses from the hands of men who HAVE BEEN GIVEN PERMISSIONS BY WHAT IS SAID AND WHAT IS NOT SAID, in our churches,
women as well as CHILDREN,
God sees, and believe me, GOD WILL JUDGE.
And when that day comes Caro,
they can tell Him, he has issues, with gender dislike.
Jane
Bottom line,
this abuse of women and children, is INJUSTICE, and INJUSTICE THAT HAS BEEN PERPETUATED, EXCUSED, WINKED AT,
IN THE NAME OF OUR HOLY GOD.
And the fact that there is NO FEAR OF GOD,
in our churches, who continue to not even CONFRONT THESE ABUSES/SINS AND ABUSES OF SCRIPTURE WITH TAKING THE NECESSARY ACTION THAT SCRIPTURE COMMANDS,
is going to one day be reckoned with. In fact, the beginnings of that reckoning are already here…when the Ungodly,
can plaster, PLASTER CARO, testimony after testimony of not only case after case of RAPE, DOMESTIC VIOLENCE, RAPING OF CHILDREN BY MEN WHO PROCLAIM THE ‘WORD OF GOD’ and not only That,
now, they have plastered Web Pictures of Christian women, with statements made my numerous mainstream preachers, with tee shirts that state,
I”m Hot Trophy or Sex thing for my husband, garbage like that,
and its MADE A MOCKERY OF THE HOLINESS OF GOD,
oh, no way…you and others in DENIAL can scream gender dislike or what have you…
but God is NOT MOCKED.
He is loving and has time and time and time and time through Christian women AND through feminists laid the truth out about the ABUSE AND HARMS, LONG LIFE HARMS, that women are suffering due to the
COLD BLOODED CALLOUSNESS OF PHARISEE CHRISTIANITY HERE AND COVETING, INCLUDES, ‘THOU SHALL NOT COVET THY NEIGHBOR’S WIFE, THAT INCLUDES, FUTURE WIVES…’
because women, are NOT SEX PROPERTY, yet, our churches treat them as such AND INDOCTRINATE THEM INTO SUBMITTING TO SUCH.
FOR DECADES THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON AND NOT ONLY THAT, WE HAVE SPREAD THAT POISON, TO OTHER NATIONS WHERE NOW,
IN THE CONGO, FOR INSTANT, WE HAVE WOMEN RAPED/GANG RAPED AND EVEN THREE YEAR OLD GIRLS, WHOSE SO CALLED CHRISTIAN HUSBANDS THEN THROW THEM OUT, BECAUSE THEY AREN’T ‘SCREWABLE’ ANYMORE,
here, do some reading: http://doctorswithoutborders.org/news/allcontent.cfm?id=194
OUR CULTURE-CHURCH HAS HAD A LOT OF INFLUENCE and still IS, in PERPETUATING
THESE MISOGYNIST BELIEFS.
the BLOOD IS ON OUR HANDS CARO,
you can scream strong gender dislike, all you want,
but I will, stand firm, on the TRUTH,
we are to NO WAY BE APOLOGETIC OR TOLERANT, OF ABUSES AND HARMS, DONE IN THE NAME OF GOD, when the EVIDENCE IS ALL AROUND US,
to AVOID, is not only WILLFUL IGNORANCE, IT IS FLAT OUT COLD INDIFFERENCE.
I will NOT be indifferent, and IF that sounds like strong gender dislike, oh well, too bad.
CHURCH, DON’T SPEAK OF PRODIGAL DAUGHTERS, USING GUILT, TO FORCE THEM BACK TO THE BODY,
NO, REPENT.
don’t bother leaving gifts at the altar AND making ‘excuses’ when we all know, there are hundreds of women, here at home and in other nations, that have been brutalized, psychologically damaged, by the PERVERSION OF SCRIPTURE,
and the name of God blasphemed among the unbelievers because of…
We have A DUTY, TO NOT ONLY YIELD AND TO LOVE, AND TO SUBMIT,
WE HAVE ALSO, A DUTY, TO CARE FOR THE AFFLICTED AND TO OPPOSE AND AVOID ALL EVIL,
to come out and be separate,
and, I will do just that.
Jesus said, visit those in prison, there are more than just metal bar prisons,
and as long as there are women, Christian or non-Christian, who are abused, ESPECIALLY AT THE HANDS OF THOSE WHO USE SCRIPTURE TO DO SO,
I will oppose and stand in the gap.
And persecution and dislike and accusation,
be damned….because that as far as I’m concerned, is what we do, when we TRULY, LOVE, AS CHRIST LOVED US.
Jane
Hi Jane,
Absolutely, and we do not disagree in the slightest on this fundamental issue. Certainly there are SOME men who can and do misuse Christianity and biblical tenets in order to perpetrate abuse on their wives and families, and we as women and Christians should stand against these atrocities. However, just as with domestic abuse in general, these people are proportionally a small minority. Does that make it any better? No. Should we be fighting in any way we can to eliminate these evils? Definitely. On the other hand, if you are not a misogynist, why make it sound as if EVERY man who professes to be a Christian husband or father is guilty of these things? Is that kind of wholesale condemnation of your fellow men representative of loving and supportive Christianity? Personally I think not.
Why is it also that you apparently cannot identify with the fact that some women clearly do get genuine pleasure and fulfillment out of sexual and other forms submission? Is this not a choice that they should be allowed the freedom to make for themselves? Feminism and human rights are not about removing personal choice but empowering people to choose. If you give people this right, you cannot then take it back at your convenience when they make choices with which you do not agree.
Caro
Hi Caroline,
few things, first, outside of the discussion topic, I wanted to say, I am sorry for one, immediately lashing out though not trying to, at you Personally, and not walking in Love, meekness, and I have prayed about this and I’m not real good at walking in Love/patience often times and its something I am dealing with/working on,
so, forgive me to ‘reacting’ to some things you said. I should have prayed about it before writing, first and maybe I should have just left it alone…old habits die hard, not an excuse but just explaining, been reading a lot about the unity in the Body and sincerely loving one another, so, in love, I’m sorry for the harsh way I wrote and many things I said, I don’t even know you, and I surely could have written in a much better way and in meekness and in love, without getting personal about it.
as for this part,
“Why is it also that you apparently cannot identify with the fact that some women clearly do get genuine pleasure and fulfillment out of sexual and other forms submission?”
ok Carol, let me, in love explain why this bothers me, a lot…
I think, it was in how it was written, about the whole penetration thing, that read to me, as if, this was for All women, and it is a belief that has been perpetuated and that has been, by male definition because sexuality has been defined by males and male desires, to be just taken as the gospel truth,
but more than that, it has been used by many men and before I go on Carol, let me say that before God saved me from backslidding, I have unfortunately, been with many men, several of them, yes, professing Christians, as well as a Muslim and married to a non-believing Jew, running away at home at 16 [fleeing abuse, including sexual] I acted out,
and you could say, I lived the life of Rahab, but worse. So, I have heard that logic used by so many men, who yes, are misogynist, downright selfish, so I’m not just speaking from ‘opinion’ from no experience there…
and in my years of feminism [and yes Caro there was a time I had very strong gender dislike and yes, I do still struggle with this, as well with the whole concept of a male God, and if NOT in the Word daily I'd probably be right back there, because I have lived for way too long the disconnect and the being the 'whore' and three times IN marriage, so]
I have not seen, to be very honest, that many good men. And that includes in the church, that and years of having submerged myself in human rights I have read every horrid account of rape/gang rape, including by so called Christian men, and have dealt personally with some of the most extreme misogynists both who are religious, in the church, and in the far left, and nationalists, Jewish, Muslim and Christian,
and yes, they do exist and I will say, before Christ right now, that they are ‘not’ the minority, they are in fact, I believe, from what I’ve seen, the majority, BECAUSE of the culture we live in.
We have a billion dollar porn/and hard core porn culture that is corporate and global that is based out of the US and Europe, both ‘Christian’ based continents, that thrives on the rapes/trafficking of young girls, more so now with the demand for virgins, and it is that way,
BECAUSE THE ‘DEMAND’ is there, meaning, its not the ‘porn’ itself that causes the sin..its the sin that causes the porn,
that is just one example, the porn is the fruit, of what is already there,
and if you know anything about porn, there is nothing good about it. And you know, there are a lot of ‘pro-positive sex’ pro-porn feminists who argue and advocate for prostitution, porn, hard porn, who say the Exact same thing as,
‘women like submission’.
I’ve even had a woman in the left party I was in, tell me, kids like being molested [one of the triggers that caused me to leave the party, it was mutual however as I did not fit in with the anti-semitism and out right blatant non caring pro-pedophilia and misogyny that is yes, rampant in the liberal-and most surely, in the far left. [and yes, in the right wing too, except in the right, its more the our women are owned/other women, esp women of color, are meat free to use/abuse]
And that belief is a widely held one, that women like being ’submissive’ sexually, that they are nothing but holes that beg to be filled and that their ‘desire’ is to only desire the man,
and the issue I have with that Caro is that that belief, including when internalized by women, doesn’t stop there….
Andrea Dworkin, whom I don’t concur on everything but she did touch on so many truths and to give an example, when the porn movies were coming out with the oral sex [bj] with Linda Lovelace,
women were seen in hospitals with severe injury to their throats because of throat rape, and that is what it is,
and the ‘belief’ was, that women, wanted this. And so many women, caved into this, and in the process injured themselves…and it still is going on today, we have a high rate of HPV cancer because of anal sex, and its growing,
not to include the risk goes up with aids there.
The Root however, of so much sexual abuse, that goes way beyond intimacy and sex is in fact, that belief that ‘women like to be submissive’ and DOMINATED in the bedroom,
and, not only that, its the same belief, that many hold, that women deep down like to be raped as well.
The two cannot be separated because they stem from the same misogynist beliefs. And they are perpetuated by the whole male dominate while women just willingly submit to whatever the male desires and its all about his big ole you know what…
meanwhile, HER sexuality is erased because its all about the ‘male’ and yes, when there is emphasis on the whole women submit AND find happiness [or the statement that ALL WOMEN will find happiness IF they just lie there and enjoy it],
then yes, it feeds into a whole other poison that does yes, lead to the harm and deep soul harm, to thousands upon thousands of women.
Its easy, to sit here and say, I wouldn’t submit to that, if my husband says such and such,
but the thing is, when we have a climate that is Conducive to telling women, that just because some women enjoy ‘penetration only and submission without even a climax, etc., or that she enjoys being a ‘toy’ for her man, so forth],
then so many women will hear that AND believe that it is to ALL women, and that IF they don’t enjoy, the treatment by their husbands [and so many will abuse that IF that is all they are taught] then rather than
Question something may be Wrong with that advice, they instead, will feel guilty, condemned, then angry, resentful, and what you wind up with,
is a whole lot of women who deep down see God as nothing but a God who created women to be nothing but cumdumps and to be raped at will with no regard to HER feelings, and then you have, like we have today,
women who leave the faith and who join up with the Goddess movement, because they want to ‘identify’ with a god who doesn’t hate women, who loves women, and who sees women, as valued human beings, not just ‘toys’ for men.
You see Caro, because I have been abused both by men not married to and men I have been married to, let me assure you,
there is NO DIFFERENCE, to being ‘just screwed’ or ‘raped’ by a husband or a stranger…
the feeling is still the same, the horrible damage is still the same, the desolation is still the same, IF not worse, and then,
come up and say, God loves you…and its like,
yea, whatever.
I don’t think, the church [now this is my opinion] truly gets, the DAMAGE, to the SOUL, of a woman, who is expected to ‘conform’ to these ideals that just because there are a few ‘women’ who will say, we enjoy that,
and maybe some women do…I will say, I know, women in the prostitution business [we call them tokens] who yes, get paid lots of money and are the ‘privileged’ corporate prostitutes who will say, they enjoy the work and so forth,
and that when we advocate against prostitution/trafficking its THOSE women who will come out and attack Any, who oppose, same goes for porn, stripping, etc.,
but, they DON’T REPRESENT, THE MAJORITY of women/girls/children who are, yes, forced to work in that work [either by force or economic duress, etc], who are
raped, gang raped, bodies harmed to the point of even yes death, psychologically damaged for LIFE, desolate, and usually dependent on drugs, so forth.
Caro I did the whole ‘positive’ sex thing to heal, before the Lord brought me back, I have heard all those statements and beliefs and the whole bsdm scene and you name it, I’ve either seen it, dealt with it, seen the effects of, or have conversed with those who are so messed up because of it,
and I am seeing it in the church.
And what DOES ANGER ME, is that, it has done SO MUCH DAMAGE to me, with my relationship with Jesus, with God, that no matter HOW much I read the Word and ‘die to self’ and even that, I struggle, in tears, hating God, feeling even at times that God is raping me…
IF you have ever lived THAT HELL,
then you would know, why I reacted, in the way I did.
AND what infuriates me is the common statements that just forgive and obey and it will all go away,
because one, that is A LIE and two, no, that level of desolation in a woman’s soul NEVER GOES AWAY…
I struggle with this EVERY DAY, and by struggle I mean, all through the day,
its near to impossible to believe [and to walk even more so] in LOVE when one has suffered and acted out, that level of abuse and treatment AND the internalizations of those beliefs,
what we call ’self abuse’.
And its not just on the streets ok, its in so many marriages, because the truth is, the majority of people, get their sexual ed, not from church, not from parents, but from others who get theirs from, porn culture.
Which IS misogyny and its so everywhere that it can look ‘innocent’ when its truly not, and I can see it,
so much of what is being written about marriage and sex, in the church, that I’ve seen thus far,
makes me cringe. And I’m not a puritan or against oral sex or any of that,
its HOW or the ‘bias’ or how its written or even more so, by what is NOT being said, that leaves so many implications WIDE OPEN for really dangerous interpretation AND the potential of horrid abuse.
So, my point is, whether or not, ’some’ women actually like that, it should Never be, a blanket statement nor should it be taught, as THE ‘normalized’ way,
because the biological fact is, most women, do not get anything out of penal penetration alone…and nor do most women, not hurt, when there is anal sex, etc.,
and what Bothers me, is that, these things ARE NOT TALKED ABOUT NOR DISCUSSED [caps for bold, not shouting] and there are so many women,
who are bleeding out of their hearts, and no one seems to really care,
and if no one seems to care, believe me, they’ll believe, that God doesn’t care either.
And, those levels of pain, don’t go away, just because someone says, oh God doesn’t mean that and blah blah blah,
when, they go to church, and hear those things, or their husband hears those things and its an environment that is ONLY conducive to that mentality,
and those women, go back home, and live lives of pain and hell.
The problem is, I think, is that its only men who get to ‘define’ in the church on these issues [and as if any man would KNOW what it feels like to have a vagina],
or ONLY those women, who will speak, what the ‘men’ agree with.
And That, I believe, is the problem…
maybe this clears up, why I have the strong reactions, to many statements, of what is deemed by many, to be
normalized for All women,
because, the truth is, it just isn’t.
In this, I say, with love…
Jane
In addition,
why too the ‘normalized’ statements like that, with the whole women can enjoy sex only by penetration/submission,
why its so dangerous, is that, yes, maybe for some women, who either just enjoy that or maybe are so in love with their husbands, whatever the reason,
is that, we need to remember, when attempting to ‘normalize’ for ALL women, by the likes of a few, is that, not all women are the same but even more so,
not all husbands are the same either, and so, like if a woman doesn’t enjoy that and she tells her husband and He says,
“but, something must be wrong with you because such and such Christian woman says all women like this so its got to be your problem and so you just submit and so forth”,
and so, her real feelings, are devalued and denied, HER sexuality, is denied to herself, and its only what his sexuality counts,
and That sadly, is the reality, in so many Christian marriages. And non-Christian, I think its a culture-society problem,
and that belief too, about penal penetration is very strong in parts of Africa and in Islamic countries where girls have no choice but to have their clitoris and in Somalia, their entire labia cut out…
and the norm is, it don’t matter, sex is only for the males…and if you know any Muslim women [who aren't just mouthpieces for Islam] they will tell you, they hate sex and their lives are miserable, that and the fistulas and the physical Pain is unending for Millions of girls, who will never know, sexual fulfillment, and the thing is, they don’t enjoy sex, period,
so, IF it was only by penetration, there wouldn’t BE all these miserable MILLIONS AND I DO MEAN MILLIONS of women, in those countries [and numerous Muslim women have spoken truthfully about the anger, resentment, pain and self-hate even of their bodies because of forced FGMs],
but you see, the MEN don’t care. They ‘get’ theirs…
so, while we may not physically perform FGMs in this country,
if we Normalize the belief that all women, enjoy penetration only and submission and can enjoy sex without any enjoyment/pleasure just because they are offerings, so to speak,
that is just another form of FGM, its a culture-indoctrination and internalization form, it doesn’t Have to be physical,
it can be accomplished through normalized statements, then Guilt by religion/culture or church/even husbands, against women,
and the outcome, is Just as damaging, if not more so.
And maybe This is why, Paul says, for Women to teach women, and NOT men, to teach women, how to love their husbands,
it is Very dangerous I think, when ‘MEN’ begin to instruct, the churches, on what They deem, as what is expected, from women sexually,
something is just wrong with that…and that includes, when Men, demand to ‘control’ via an umbrella, the women space, that is supposed to be among women, about these things,
because Women should define for Women, what is female sexuality, and not just one woman, as well as Individual women being able to define for themselves, without Guilt, and social pressure, by others,
rather than Men defining. ESPECIALLY, IN A CULTURE, THAT IS INFLUENCED BY PORN AND MOST OF PORN, BEING VIOLENT-RAPE CENTERED PORN.
And I think, that we should yes, question [our] Internalizations, because we have lived decades under a porn-influenced culture, that yes, has infiltrated the church. And I speak this from having intimate knowledge of that culture, and having lived it out…
and I can say, there is a HUGE DIFFERENCE, between being submissive in the bedroom and being in a mutual and ‘equal’ exchange,
and by the mutual I mean, being truly honest, not living up or obeying some kind of standard with the bat of ’submission’ being held over the head,
and, that submission no matter what, is truly, just laying there, and allowing oneself, to be raped.
and the harm done, psychologically, though yes, one can toughen up and deny and harden up, is Just as damaging, if not more so, on such a deep level, spiritually,
that its really no different than being raped by a stranger…as far as the emotional damage it causes. And on that, I can speak, because I live it every day…so, I stand, firm,
in love but firm, that the majority of women, do not just enjoy, sex from penetration alone and that women’s bodies, were created, to be loved differently than men’s, and that, sex,
should be a whole lot more, than a man just pumping…hate to be so blunt, but there it is,
and if a man, is not willing, to learn AND LISTEN, and BELIEVE A WOMAN, about what she says about HER BODY,
then, its not love. And its not lovemaking,
its just a wham bam thank you mam and all the cars and false words, don’t mean squat, because actions, speak a whole lot louder than words, and if that is all the marriage is,
its NO DIFFERENT, THAN A woman with a John. Seriously…
Jane